Why not use USB-C ??

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I'm with the OP on this one. The GH5 has a USB-C connector yet it's sibling the G9 does not which supposedly shares much but not all similar hardware as the GH5 and goes backwards by including a USB micro charging port.
What I don't get, is why there's always some naysayers posting a counterargument saying something along the lines as "not needed, unnecessary, pointless, so and so tech is good enough" when camera gear is electronics and they are not cheap. It's only logical we get the most for our hard earned money and not have to settle with old or outdated features. It's like telling the manufacturers, keep on making "new" gear with old, outdated equipment and keep raising the prices since we'll still buy it anyway. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'm sure these types of consumers are dream buyers for manufacturers but in reality all they are doing is promoting manufacturers to stop innovating, to stop being competitive, to stop moving forward.
 

zanydroid

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I'm with the OP on this one. The GH5 has a USB-C connector yet it's sibling the G9 does not which supposedly shares much but not all similar hardware as the GH5 and goes backwards by including a USB micro charging port.
What I don't get, is why there's always some naysayers posting a counterargument saying something along the lines as "not needed, unnecessary, pointless, so and so tech is good enough" when camera gear is electronics and they are not cheap. It's only logical we get the most for our hard earned money and not have to settle with old or outdated features. It's like telling the manufacturers, keep on making "new" gear with old, outdated equipment and keep raising the prices since we'll still buy it anyway. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'm sure these types of consumers are dream buyers for manufacturers but in reality all they are doing is promoting manufacturers to stop innovating, to stop being competitive, to stop moving forward.
Oh wow, G9 has a USB 3.0 Micro B? I alway assumed it has a USB-C like the GH5.

... I can't decide whether to praise or make fun of that design decision.
 

DanS

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We can talk in 5 years time when ALL of your other devices use a single USB-C cable, except that one frickin' camera you have to keep a Micro USB cable around for. I'm pretty much there already.
If certain sectors of the tech industry have their way, we won't have cables at all in 5 years. Communication will be wireless, and power transfer will be inductive (even if it is inefficient).

making the consumers feel good is completely pointless?
when it comes to something like cable types, yes, as most consumers know almost nothing about the cables.

A red herring argument. Users could use the speed because the highest end SD cards can exceed what USB 2.0 is capable (they can not only "touch" what USB 2.0 is capable but can hit the ceiling). So going to USB 3.x could benefit the user with faster transfer speed. USB 3.x's max speed doesn't matter.
You have miss interpreted my comments see below.

Actually USB3.0 is essential for even mere UHS-II cards, which can easily read/write at 100-150MB/s (protocol limited by UHS-II). There are special UHS-II cards that can go double speed, so even such low end devices are pushing the limits of that generation of buses.
  1. USB 3.0 = 625 MB/s
  2. USB 3.1 = 1250 MB/s
  3. USB 3.2 = 2500 MB/s
  4. USB 4.0 = 5000 MB/s

as I said , no SD cards currently on the market can touch what 3.0 is capable of. Under lab conditions the best SD cards top out at ~300MB/s. Technically you can get a usb 2.0 type c cable, but what most consumers expect is a usb 3.1 type c cable with PD v2.0 (100w charging), but these are not cheap cables, specially when you buy them form a manufacture with a good reputation.

You also need to be damn careful when dumping ~300mb/s cards to drive. with 64GB+ and even some times 32GB cards, will get extremely warm if you are reading a lot of data from them at high speed. I do it regularly, and I wouldn't want to do it with the card in any of my cameras. We are probably approaching the point where high speed cards need heat sinks.
 

gwydionjhr

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If certain sectors of the tech industry have their way, we won't have cables at all in 5 years. Communication will be wireless, and power transfer will be inductive (even if it is inefficient).
I've been using Qi charging almost exclusively since my Lumia 920. But I have a feeling it's waning, with USB-C and fast charging, plugging in for 20 minutes can be good to get you through a whole day now.
 

PakkyT

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I am a bit scared of adding a USB port to internal batteries... seems likely to cause problems :crying:
Based on what? Just because you are not used to it? What technically makes this worse than any other method to charge a battery?


You have miss interpreted my comments see below.
Under lab conditions the best SD cards top out at ~300MB/s
Nope, I didn't. you stated...

Users don't need the speed, as even the highest end SD card can't touch what USB 3.0 is capable of.
You argument seems to be that since "the best SD cards top out at ~300MB/s" then they should be capped at 60 MB/s (USB 2.0)? :hmmm:
If current SD cards can do hundreds of MB/s then it makes sense to use the USB standard that can take full advantage of that, which is USB 3.x. Not crippling the SD card speed with slow USB 2.0.
 

zanydroid

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Based on what? Just because you are not used to it? What technically makes this worse than any other method to charge a battery?
Battery cells tend to have very simple shapes. If you put a USB-C port inside a small battery like the BLS-5, you're going to lose considerable internal volume, which means meaningfully fewer Watt-hours than a battery without the port. The manufacturing and mechanical engineering would also be difficult -- it would be easier to make a safe cell that fills all the volume of a simple shape, than to make it wrap around the space devoted to the port.

I would argue that USB-C port inside a big battery with 6-8 hours of capacity is redundant vs having in-body charging for the majority of use cases, since an overnight charge cycle / opportunistically charging from computer bus while offloading would be sufficient to keep it topped off for the next day of shooting.
 
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PakkyT

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Oops sorry, my apologies. I thought you were commenting on USB charging in general, but looking back through the thread after your post directly above I see you were talking about an actual USB port on the battery itself.
 

PakkyT

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Nope, you did, you are just reading what you want to read!

SD cards can't Max out 3.0 right now, so they don't need USB type-c which is almost always 3.1, unless you're buying some crap cable.
OK so then explicitly so I am not misinterpreting your stance, are you saying that Olympus was correct to stick with USB 2.0 on this new model rather than USB 3.x because cards can't max out USB 3 speeds?
 

DanS

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OK so then explicitly so I am not misinterpreting your stance, are you saying that Olympus was correct to stick with USB 2.0 on this new model rather than USB 3.x because cards can't max out USB 3 speeds?
No, they should have gone to USB 3.0 but not with a type C Connector.
 

wjiang

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bassman

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I am a bit scared of adding a USB port to internal batteries... seems likely to cause problems :crying:

The integrated port is done on some large external batteries for video rigs.

My sony has a great internal battery; that one can last for 6-8 hours of heavy 42MP shooting. At that point you can use in body charging for 99% of the time, since you just need one battery.

For anything under 4 hours (this new Em5 battery and the GH5 one), you do need to keep 2-3 batteries topped off at all times. At least with internal charging if you forget the charger, you can still save your trip with minor inconvenience. IE charge one overnight, then charge spare off a powerbank during downtime. Vs freaking out in a developing country, trying to figure out how to find a Panasonic or Olympus dealer...
My Ring video doorbell battery has a micro-USB port built in for charging. It saves having to engineer a charger and ship it.

/rant on

When I travel I need to take Lightning, micro-USB and USB-C cables. Apple’s already starting to move to USB-C. It would be great to only have to bring one cable (or two, so there’s a backup). As it is, I take at least six, so there’s backup for everything (sometimes I take adaptors, e.g. micro-USB to USB-C). It could be more than six, as I need to count the number of each kind I might use simultaneously.

Same with in-body charging. My cameras all use different batteries, which means they all need different chargers. My next trip will be with an E-M1ii, using a GX9 as a backup. The GX9 has in-body charging, so I only need an Olympus charger.

And while we’re at it, why can’t the chargers all accept a USB-C cable for power input? Then they could eliminate the AC/DC conversion they all build into the battery chargers, eliminate the need to design, stock and ship different mains plugs worldwide, save money for themselves and make life easier for us. All of us already travel with wall warts that have USB outlets; I travel with one that has four outlets.

This stuff is just a symptom of how the camera companies often forget about the usability of their gear in the real world for real people.

/rant off
 

DanS

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USB-C is just a connector. It's a better connector. The E-M1 Mk2 already has the connector, but running USB 2.0 which is unfortunate since my UHS-II cards already go faster than that. I must use a USB 3.1 G1 reader to get full read speeds. I don't understand why they'd revert to micro USB connectors now.
This is exactly why some companies have decided to avoid USB-C. In 2014/15 The tablet and phone manufactures confused the crap out of the average consumer with their promises of fast charging, and high speed data transfers.



And while we’re at it, why can’t the chargers all accept a USB-C cable for power input? Then they could eliminate the AC/DC conversion they all build into the battery chargers, eliminate the need to design, stock and ship different mains plugs worldwide, save money for themselves and make life easier for us. All of us already travel with wall warts that have USB outlets; I travel with one that has four outlets.

This stuff is just a symptom of how the camera companies often forget about the usability of their gear in the real world for real people.
It's not camera companies fault, it's an entire tech industry issue.

The number one issue with USB-C, is that consumers have no way of just looking at a cable and being able tell what spec it is with regards to data and power transfer.

Power transfer, is by far the biggest issue, as some cables are only rated for 15w, while some can do 100W. Needless to say you don't want to dump 100w through a cable on capable of 15w.
 

zanydroid

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If current SD cards can do hundreds of MB/s then it makes sense to use the USB standard that can take full advantage of that, which is USB 3.x. Not crippling the SD card speed with slow USB 2.0.
Not to mention that USB 3.0 chipsets also added modern protocols like SCSI over USB.
And while we’re at it, why can’t the chargers all accept a USB-C cable for power input? Then they could eliminate the AC/DC conversion they all build into the battery chargers, eliminate the need to design, stock and ship different mains plugs worldwide, save money for themselves and make life easier for us. All of us already travel with wall warts that have USB outlets; I travel with one that has four outlets.
If cameras were more popular, they would have been subjected to common power supply regulation like cell phones were a decade ago :laugh: Remember what a mess those were in the 1990s through mid 2000s?

I don't get why manufacturers still ship AC-based chargers (which tend to be massive). I appreciate that these 1st party ones are built really nicely, but I always just leave it in the box as a backup, and order a flimsy 3rd party USB one.

This stuff is just a symptom of how the camera companies often forget about the usability of their gear in the real world for real people.
I kind of wish those Chinese companies finally figure out how to make a good consumer body. I'm sure they have agile management than the Japanese companies, and it feels that many of those companies on a whole are pretty passionate about making camera gear. It's a lot easier to get in touch with some of them than it is the Japanese engineering teams.

(same for other non-Japanese companies like DJI, actually. In defense of the traditional companies, I guess by some metrics Sony is hippest company these days, judging by the fanciness of their over the top launch events, and the interview I saw with the Sigma CEO on the Sigma FP was pretty promising, IE he pushes for a few cameras and lenses that he actually wants to use himself)
 

zanydroid

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This is exactly why some companies have decided to avoid USB-C. In 2014/15 The tablet and phone manufactures confused the crap out of the average consumer with their promises of fast charging, and high speed data transfers.
I'll admit I've been upset by buying 480 Mbps USB-C PD cables...

Hmm, sounds like you want connectors that are physically inferior (like USB 3.0 micro-B, which is flimsy, huge, clunky and cannot be reversed) to one that's mechanically and electrically much more scalable like USB-C, because it's a lot more obvious what you're getting with something like USB3 micro-B.

vs USB-C, where you might have 480 Mbps, 5 Gbps, 10 Gbps, different PD ratings on the cable side. Yet, the standard allows all that scalability in speed and power, plus the ability to use some of the conductors for other protocols, and the PD features are much better negotiated than the janky hacks that were used for USB2.0. The high power cables are required to have an ID chip, so there is minimal electrical danger (wouldn't have been able to get that UL certification).

Also, there are standardized logos for all of the sub-modes, which is respected by about 50% of the cables I have. Not as high as I'd like, but I can vote with my wallet...
 

DanS

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Hmm, sounds like you want connectors that are physically inferior (like USB 3.0 micro-B, which is flimsy, huge, clunky and cannot be reversed) to one that's mechanically and electrically much more scalable like USB-C, because it's a lot more obvious what you're getting with something like USB3 micro-B.
I'd prefer to come out with something new that's consistent and identifiable.


Also, there are standardized logos for all of the sub-modes, which is respected by about 50% of the cables I have. Not as high as I'd like, but I can vote with my wallet...
you're far better off than I am. I'd say about 10% or less of the cables I've used are actually marked in any way.
 

zanydroid

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I'd prefer to come out with something new that's consistent and identifiable.
Ah ok, yeah that makes sense. All the symbols are standardized, so hopefully the cables will all get labeled one day. For a new device (camera or phone), i am afraid one just has to do due diligence on what its actual bus speed and special modes are (like HDMI transport or fast USB storage), if those are important.

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