Where is Panasonic GX9 line heading ? (Long rant)

bikerhiker

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And right now there are perhaps too many suppliers with a shrinking market (Bythom's shakeout coming scenario) give the buyer economic leverage in the mid-range.

Either that or the market is pricing in the discount in expectation of the entrance to mirrorless from the big two in 2018. Sort like the stock market price discounting we had as fears of high interest rate become a reality. This way, you get some sales going and beach head established before King Kong and Godzilla starts their market disruption.
 

retiredfromlife

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My point is that there are many advantages to m43, but pro IQ currently isn't one of them so stop pretending. I am also seeing CanNikon like feature distinction creeping into m43 to push higher prices. M43 is about size and value... and abandoning those is crazy.

I would have to sort of agree. To me if size and price = APSC a lot of people will go the APSC route, this is certainly what I hear at my local camera club where not that many people are interested in stabilization for some reason.

A lot of the members are retired and reasonably cashed up so they go on a lot of photo trips. They want a camera they can get repaired quickly between trips. Olympus can do this in Australia but Panasonic use a third party repair service so I cant see them getting a share of the pro market. Sure they will sell some cameras to the pro market but to a lesser extent to people who need a premium repair service.

Me I will plod along with my G85 for the time being, suits me fine.
 

speedy

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M43 is about size and value... and abandoning those is crazy.

Except they're not abandoning those. That's exactly the point of the GX9. And the mkII versions of lenses like the 1-300 etc.
Also, I'm extremely happy that bodies like the G9 exist. I don't have elfish, girlie hands, bodies like my GX8 & G9 suit me perfectly. Much better than my EOSM, or some of the Oly EM cameras
 

WT21

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OK, Here's what I'd like to see:

I want to see Panasonic enter the full frame market.

Kind of crazy, but here's why.

First, I think Oly has lost the plot. They are building expensive tanks for a compact system. There is a market (wildlife) for what they are building, but it feels like 43 all over again. Chasing too small a niche.

If sales don't increase, then neither will anyone's incentive to invest in more 43 sensor innovation.

If Oly drops the market (because cameras overall are shrinking), Panasonic would be left exposed.

Right now the major players are below, with the major market segments (according to me -- I have no data, lol):
  • Canon -- upper end/pro (weddings, sports) and mom-and-pop shooters (EF-M line)
  • Nikon -- upper end/pro like Canon. Nikon is also the most exposed. They HAVE to get mirrorless right this year, because they are too small and too strapped for cash to survive another Nikon 1 failure.
  • Sony -- upper end is where they are headed, with a nod to APS-C, but their investment is clearly in world-beating large and expensive glass
  • Fuji -- a solid niche amongst enthusiast, travel photos, retro. I think they are protected from the others above because they (haven't been) chasing the wedding/sports pros. Oh, and MF
  • Oly -- used to make their bread and butter on innovations like sensor cleaning, IBIS, Live View, WR, and outstanding Liveview AF (contrast detect). Almost all of these innovations have been successfully copied, and in some cases, surpassed.
That leaves Panasonic. I have really grown to love their lenses and their camera bodies. Yes, they can be frustrating in their naming, and their sudden decisions to abandon a body style (GM and GX8) but overall, I'd like to see their design ethos and market segment targets continue. I think they take enthusiasts seriously.

I think they live off their video business, and bring that tech to their consumer-grade camera business. I'd like to see them do the same in FF.

If Nikon just kills it with a mirrorless launch this year, it will be harder, but if they go the Canon route (consumer APS-C), then I hope Panny has a fantastic FF rangefinder (GXFF) + FF video (GHFF) in their back pocket they are about to announce.

Only Panny, I think, would be interested in, and could challenge Fuji, and if they had a proper FF and m43 sensor sizes, without some of the Fuji baggage, I think they could make a serious go at it. Then they might have enough sales between FF and m43, to survive with or without Oly.

Not married to the above. Just one daydream scenario.
 
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I get tired of "m4/3 should go full frame" arguments when it would mean abandoning the whole lens ecosystem. Which is what makes m4/3 what it is for me (and many others). Full frame lenses would have to look more or less just like Sony's, and there's already a whole stable of those, including very high end Zeiss and other offerings, so what would be the point of trying to enter that space so far behind competitors?
 

WT21

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I get tired of "m4/3 should go full frame" arguments when it would mean abandoning the whole lens ecosystem. Which is what makes m4/3 what it is for me (and many others). Full frame lenses would have to look more or less just like Sony's, and there's already a whole stable of those, including very high end Zeiss and other offerings, so what would be the point of trying to enter that space so far behind competitors?

Yeah, I get that, but I like FF + m43 as a compliment, and I'm not sure m43 can survive on it's own. So, as I stated, if Panny did a FF, they could have a nice 1-2 punch. They could also aim more mid-range, instead of super high end. Eh, maybe I'm wrong, but I would love a bigger sensor system with Panny's design ethos, to complement my small kit. APS-C isn't, IMO, differentiated enough, so I'd like to see a Panny FF.

edit: I don't mean m43 should go full frame. I don't even know what that means? (how does one format "go" another format?) What I am suggesting, is Panny should launch a FF line, to complement their FF line. Sony has APS-C + FF, same with Canon and Nikon, Fuji has APS-C + MF. Penny is exposed, IMO with just one line. They should get in there with a second line.
 
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D7k1

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Because Pany still owns a significant share in the sensor manufacturing plant, you never know ....did they really do the new Nikon sensor? FF could be just an evolution of "we can make them and they will come".
 

Turbofrog

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Yeah, I get that, but I like FF + m43 as a compliment, and I'm not sure m43 can survive on it's own. So, as I stated, if Panny did a FF, they could have a nice 1-2 punch. They could also aim more mid-range, instead of super high end. Eh, maybe I'm wrong, but I would love a bigger sensor system with Panny's design ethos, to complement my small kit. APS-C isn't, IMO, differentiated enough, so I'd like to see a Panny FF.
While I'm not sure M4/3 can survive on its own, I'm not sure M4/3 + FF makes it any more likely to survive. That part of the market is going to be a ruthlessly competitive killing ground within a couple years. Sony, Nikon, and Canon all duking it out for scraps of an ever-shrinking market. M4/3 is partially insulated from that because it has its own unique selling proposition which comes with unique advantages and disadvantages. Unless, of course, all the FF mirrorless companies are going to start making teensy, tiny, cheap, optically good f7-11 zooms and f2.8 and f3.5 primes...

Fuji is also slightly insulated from all this, but with the exception of their lower-end primes, their APS-C system is pretty hefty (butting right up against FF), and I think digital medium format (especially 44x33) is a complete dead-end. But what do I know...?
 

saladin

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I think they'd be far more interested in giving MFT some "full frame IQ" via organic sensors, global shutters etc than investing in a new camera system.
 

kahren

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If you look carefully at the price, the GX-9 represents very good value. It's $999 USD with a lens! Sell off the lens and you can end up with a $799 or $749 USD body. A 20MP m43 body that is well below $1000 USD had NEVER been marketed before brand new. m43 platform had lost a lead of about 1-2 years compared to APS-C (Fuji, Sony and the rest) of NOT offering a 20MP body as a marketing sell and upgrade for less than $1000 USD. People do not realize that there are many 16MP m43 users who are wanting to upgrade. But all they got is another bunch 16MP cameras which are great, have many features, but they are still 16MP.

I think all you can see is that, Panasonic finally realized that many people want to upgrade to 20MP, but was never offered an affordable way to do it. If you want 20MP, either you go for a G9, OMD E-M1 II or the PEN-F all none of which are below $999 USD. None of them even come with a free lens to boot!

GX-9 is probably a trend in the making.. So far, Olympus does not have such a complete product distinction. Panasonic has the G9, GH5 and GH5s as top premium cameras just like the Sony A9, A7RIII and A7SII. Nikon with the D5, D850 and D500. Nikon DF never sold all that well. See the trend?!?

GX-9 is probably one of the trio in the mid-tier product line followed by the GX85 and GX80. And this is how I suspect Panasonic is doing to sell more cameras.. And this is the new reality.

I would take a better evf on the gx9 over 20mp anyday, and i think if it had same evf as a sony a6300 or em10II, this whole thread wouldn't exist :)
 

WT21

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While I'm not sure M4/3 can survive on its own, I'm not sure M4/3 + FF makes it any more likely to survive. That part of the market is going to be a ruthlessly competitive killing ground within a couple years. Sony, Nikon, and Canon all duking it out for scraps of an ever-shrinking market. M4/3 is partially insulated from that because it has its own unique selling proposition which comes with unique advantages and disadvantages. Unless, of course, all the FF mirrorless companies are going to start making teensy, tiny, cheap, optically good f7-11 zooms and f2.8 and f3.5 primes...

Fuji is also slightly insulated from all this, but with the exception of their lower-end primes, their APS-C system is pretty hefty (butting right up against FF), and I think digital medium format (especially 44x33) is a complete dead-end. But what do I know...?

Well, I have no facts here, lol. Just conjecture, but I guess what I was trying to say is I REALLY like m43, but I was hoping/wondering/pondering that a move to add a FF line could help Panasonic stay in the game. I do agree that if Nikon makes a strong move to FF mirrorless, then that changes everything, but right now, Canon looks like they are treating mirrorless like the new Rebel, leaving the FF mirrorless market to Sony alone. If neither Canon nor Nikon want to take it seriously, I'd like to see Panasonic get in the game. As I mentioned, I like their designs and overall approach.

My fear is Oly is retreating to what they did with 43, which historically, was not successful, and if they fail/go stagnant, I don't see Panny staying in the camera business on just m43 alone.
 

WT21

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I would take a better evf on the gx9 over 20mp anyday, and i think if it had same evf as a sony a6300 or em10II, this whole thread wouldn't exist :)
I would really like more cropping, but agree 100% on the EVF. For me, if they make it bigger/better but fixed in place, I'm good with that!
 

kahren

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While I'm not sure M4/3 can survive on its own, I'm not sure M4/3 + FF makes it any more likely to survive. That part of the market is going to be a ruthlessly competitive killing ground within a couple years. Sony, Nikon, and Canon all duking it out for scraps of an ever-shrinking market. M4/3 is partially insulated from that because it has its own unique selling proposition which comes with unique advantages and disadvantages. Unless, of course, all the FF mirrorless companies are going to start making teensy, tiny, cheap, optically good f7-11 zooms and f2.8 and f3.5 primes...

Fuji is also slightly insulated from all this, but with the exception of their lower-end primes, their APS-C system is pretty hefty (butting right up against FF), and I think digital medium format (especially 44x33) is a complete dead-end. But what do I know...?

Look at the dsl sales, they have been falling every year now, and mirrorless has been steady except for 2017. Since we can't see how many of those dslr sales are apsc and how many are ff, I think its hard to say how the mirrorless sales will be, what is interesting is that 2017 mirrorless sold ~25% more. I think most apsc dslr's (whatever is left of them) are going to keep loosing sales slowly to ANY mirrorless format. The m43 job is to grab those that are switching from apsc dslr to m43 and not apsc mirrorless, but I am afraid with most current pricing of m43 cams that is probably not going to be happening and those apsc dslr people will either get some of the more comfortable for them apsc cams from fuji or sony OR just sit and wait while shooting with their new shiny phone :). I think most ff dslr people dont really care too much what is happening with any mirrorless format at least not yet, and that is probably why canon is barely doing anything.

slr.jpg
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Turbofrog

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Look at the dsl sales, they have been falling every year now, and mirrorless has been steady except for 2017. Since we can't see how many of those dslr sales are apsc and how many are ff, I think its hard to say how the mirrorless sales will be, what is interesting is that 2017 mirrorless sold ~25% more. I think most apsc dslr's (whatever is left of them) are going to keep loosing sales slowly to ANY mirrorless format. The m43 job is to grab those that are switching from apsc dslr to m43 and not apsc mirrorless, but I am afraid with most current pricing of m43 cams that is probably not going to be happening and those apsc dslr people will either get some of the more comfortable for them apsc cams from fuji or sony OR just sit and wait while shooting with their new shiny phone :). I think most ff dslr people dont really care too much what is happening with any mirrorless format at least not yet, and that is probably why canon is barely doing anything.

View attachment 616653
For Nikon, anyway (and I assume that Canon is very similar, given their product mix), the sales mix of DSLRs is about 80-85% APS-C.
 
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Yeah, I get that, but I like FF + m43 as a compliment, and I'm not sure m43 can survive on it's own. So, as I stated, if Panny did a FF, they could have a nice 1-2 punch. They could also aim more mid-range, instead of super high end. Eh, maybe I'm wrong, but I would love a bigger sensor system with Panny's design ethos, to complement my small kit. APS-C isn't, IMO, differentiated enough, so I'd like to see a Panny FF.

edit: I don't mean m43 should go full frame. I don't even know what that means? (how does one format "go" another format?) What I am suggesting, is Panny should launch a FF line, to complement their FF line. Sony has APS-C + FF, same with Canon and Nikon, Fuji has APS-C + MF. Penny is exposed, IMO with just one line. They should get in there with a second line.
As long as enough people like you enjoy having an m4/3 camera to complement their FF camera, then I think the format isn't going anywhere. Honestly I think there are breakthroughs in sensor tech that, once they make it into the consumer market, may mean smaller sensor cameras only increase, rather than decrease, in popularity.
 

JensM

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Forget the gx8, it doesn't have much to do with the gx9, gx8 was a fluke more or less.
All the gx8 people are now redirected to the g85 or g9 :)

It may very well have been a fluke, but if one looks at the content of the discussions about the GX9, it is obviously that people feels a certain let down by Panasonic, which mostly stems from replacing a high end model with a not so high end model and keeping the series numbering. Had they called it the GX90 and been done, I think the transistion had been right fine and dandy.

Grumbings about the lost GX9 would had surfaced but that could very well have been an opportunity for releasing a GX8 housing with a G9 photocentric interior in a years time. :)
 
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