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"What you see is NOT what you get"

Discussion in 'Adapted Lenses' started by just4fun, Sep 18, 2010.

  1. just4fun

    just4fun Mu-43 Rookie

    22
    Sep 11, 2010
    Hello all, newbie question here :)
    I am talking about shooting with live view on LCD...
    "What you see is NOT what you get" this is true at least to me...
    I stick many kind of adapted lens (Canon FD, Leica M, Contax ect...) look thru the LCD, when I have the setting I want, look beautiful, then click, image often too dark and the result is vary depends on kind of lens and lighting condition... sometimes, I get what I see in the LCD but most of the time, I don't. With m4/3 native Lens, it doesn't react that way.

    So, can any experience users share tip/trick how to anticipate the result please? it's really annoying when I see something nice, shoot and then find out the image is under expose :( because of this reason, I am beginning to think about give up using adapted lens on m4/3.

    Sorry, if this question been asked before, please help me find the related thread. and again, I am new so please bear with me :)
    Thanks
    Sean
     
  2. Ulfric M Douglas

    Ulfric M Douglas Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 6, 2010
    Northumberland
    You need the histogram displayed with the picture : then exposure will be 'predictable' and you can adjust the exposure up or down according to what the camera is telling you 'will be' the result.
    hmmm ... that sound random.
    Anyway, it works nicely on my G1 will any and all lenses.
    With the proper m4/3rds lenses the cemeras are more naturally exposing correctly. With old lenses sometimes they do it wrong : the histogram can give you advance warning of that so you can adjust accordingly.
     
  3. pictor

    pictor Mu-43 Top Veteran

    635
    Jul 17, 2010
    Have I understood you correctly, that yo set the exposure manually depending on what you see on LCD? This is a rather imprecise way of setting the exposure. It is better to let the metering of the camera do the job and learn how to use that (use, for example, spot metering in critical situations). With old manual lenses you can still set the aperture and the camera chooses the shutter speed automatically.
     
  4. just4fun

    just4fun Mu-43 Rookie

    22
    Sep 11, 2010
    Thanks Douglas and pictor for the response!
    yes, I use A mode most of the time... the LCD/Histogram appear to be correct but after the shot, the picture is under exposed, sometime, much darker than the preview seconds before.
    What I am suspecting is the old lens somehow fool the camera meter, in what way, i don't know... I also did use spot metering
    I can manage to get "right" exposure but many time, I have to increase EV few 1/3 stop to get it right (which I don't prefer as 1st post)
    Check out the thread I just opened
    https://www.mu-43.com/f81/leica-summaron-35mm-f-2-8-m-lens-5888/
    I am learning to shoot with old lens
    Sean


     
  5. pictor

    pictor Mu-43 Top Veteran

    635
    Jul 17, 2010
    Do you calibrate your computer screen?
     
  6. just4fun

    just4fun Mu-43 Rookie

    22
    Sep 11, 2010
    Hi Pictor,
    Computer screen has nothing to do with this, I was talking about the LCD on the Camera.
    I will explain again:
    - Panasonic GF1 with adapted Lens
    - Use A mode, select aperture on lens (say f2.8) then Camera give shutter speed (say 1/60) - the subject, lighting, Histogram looks good
    - take the picture, the picture is a lot darker than in live view.

    The under exposed happen differently on each [adapted] lens = what I see (on camera LCD Screen) is Not what I get.
    On native Lens has no problem... what I see is what I get.
    I have Sekonic 785 Light Meter, if I use the sekonic and ignore what happen on the camera LCD, use the setting according to the Sekonic, the exposure is correct.
    So I guess with the adapted Lens, Camera's build in Light meter is useless ???

    Pictor, can you confirm, with your camera and adapted lens, in A mode, your final picture will look similar to the live view? I ask because it sound like I am the only one have that problem.
    Thanks
    Sean
     
  7. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus

    Dec 15, 2009
    Phila, Pa USA
    Do you have live view boost on?
     
  8. just4fun

    just4fun Mu-43 Rookie

    22
    Sep 11, 2010
    I don't know if GF1 has one but no, I don't do anything to the LCD mode [off] (don't use power LCD or auto power)
    As I said, with Native Lens (panasonic 20mm or 14-45mm) I don't have that problem.
    Thanks
    Sean
    Edit: just checked, nope, in Monitor setting (Camera monitor) everything in zero
     
  9. Ulfric M Douglas

    Ulfric M Douglas Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 6, 2010
    Northumberland
    Hmmm. Deep thought.
    Sometimes my camera does give me a dark shot, when it exposes for maybe some backlighting instead of the subject ... but I've not had your problem exactly.
    I have used my G1 on ...tokyo,helios.prektica,hanimex,fed,jupiter,yashinon,cosinon,hexanon,pentax110 ... well quite a few lenses. Maybe I really need an expensive lens to find your exact problem, sorry I can't be more help. I always have the little histogram on in the middle of the screen : it helps me recognise if the camera is trying to wrongly expose.
     
  10. snkenai

    snkenai Mu-43 Top Veteran

    523
    Sep 5, 2010
    Try using centerweighted metering if you are shooting in very high contrast setting. The old lenses don't seen to work the same for me in these sitituations. Otherwise I get great results. I only have old glass at this time.
     
  11. grebeman

    grebeman Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 13, 2010
    South Brent, south Devon (UK)
    Barrie
    I can only reiterate much of what has been said before. I shoot almost exclusively with adapted lenses and to all intents and purposes suffer no bad exposures unless I deliberately take a picture in extreme light conditions.
    Camera set to "multiple" metering mode, live histogram display "on". I usually dial in 1/3 of a stop under exposure to avoid blowing out the highlights. Use Aperture priority and set the desired f stop manually on the lens in use. The live histogram will alert you to any under or over exposure conditions and you can dial in correction accordingly.

    Barrie
     
  12. photoSmart42

    photoSmart42 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    628
    Feb 12, 2010
    San Diego, CA
    Definitely check your metering mode. You may be doing area metering, and in a scene with a bright background that will underexpose the area of interest in the photo. Try either spot metering, or try using the AE lock button once the metering looks OK in your LCD. Often times you can focus off to the side then move the composition off-center, and if you don't have your exposure locked it'll change.
     
  13. grebeman

    grebeman Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 13, 2010
    South Brent, south Devon (UK)
    Barrie
    With all due respect I have to take issue with the idea of using spot metering. This is a specialised metering method. Any meter is designed to render the scene it's metering as mid grey, thus if you meter a white card and expose for that reading the white card will be rendered mid grey. If you meter a black card and expose for that reading the black card will be rendered mid grey. Those 2 meter readings could be 6 or more stops apart. This is the principle of the zone system, meter the whitest area and place it on a high zone, meter the darkest area and place it on a low zone. Spot meters will often store the lightest area reading and the darkest area reading and produce an average reading which is what the camera should be set to. This is obviously a brief simplification, but using spot metering can lead to very misleading results, it needs to be used intelligently.
    I refer you to the writings of Ansel Adams where, in "Camera and Lens" he states that when using a spot meter, unless the photographer is versed on the Zone System and visualisation his results can be bizarre indeed.

    Barrie
     
  14. mauve

    mauve Mu-43 Top Veteran

    892
    Mar 9, 2010
    Paris, France
    On Olympus bodies, you can use the pen Hi & Lo spot metering to check out the range of the scene and then spot for something mid-grey... or not ! Spot metering is perfectly OK as long as you know what you're doing. I almost always spot meter, it's the best solution for rendering your intent in black & white. It's much more difficult to achieve good results in colour.

    Cheers,

    Mauve
     
  15. grebeman

    grebeman Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 13, 2010
    South Brent, south Devon (UK)
    Barrie
    Mauve, precisely what I said

    Barrie
     
  16. mauve

    mauve Mu-43 Top Veteran

    892
    Mar 9, 2010
    Paris, France
    Sorry, I certainly misunderstood you. Blame it on my bad english. I thought you were against using spot metering as a general metering mode. I just wanted to say that in b&w photography, it's absolutely possible and useful to spot meter most of the time. It helps drive the eye of the (future) onlooker where you want in the picture.

    Cheers,

    Mauve
     
  17. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Spot meters are no different.. certainly not a specialized method of metering. Its simply the area which is metered (smaller circle) that is the difference. Measuring bright and dark areas to determine exposure is a technique. Spot, center, and average are different tools. You can apply a tool to whatever technique works best for you.

    * Spot to meter middle grey
    * Spot to measure bright and dark, then average.
    * Spot the bright point and add certain exposure compensation...
    etc..

    All can be done with average and center average as well.

    Certainly, Spot and Center average require a bit more thought than multi-segment (or whatever Panasonic calls it). I am assuming just4fun knows how to use a spot meter as he/she arrived at an acceptable exposure using their handheld Sekonic.

    I believe this is the key here....

    1) Using a native lens, set the GF1 to a center average. Meter a wall or Something that is uniform that fills the frame. Note the exposure reading.
    2) Using an adapted lens, set the GF1 to center average. Meter the same wall filling the frame. Note the exposure.
    3) Using a native lens, set the GF1 to Multi-pattern. Do the same.
    4) Using an adapted lens, set the GF1 to Multi-pattern. Do the same.

    1A) through 4A) Do the same with a high contrast area.... Its important to use the same scene throughout the experiment.

    Comparing the exposures should give you a clue to as what's going on (I don't have a GF1 to perform the test myself).

    My guess...

    1 & 2 should agree.
    1 & 3 should be close.
    4 will be off a little against a wall and much more against a high contrast area.

    The multi-pattern mode (evaluative, whatever they call it) is attempting to be more intelligent by adjusting automatically according to the different segments being metered. This feature is not working properly with none native lenses which "tell" the camera a variety of information including what focal length is set.


    On my E-PL1, I have two "reset settings". One is tailored for native lenses and the other is tailored for adapted lenses. The metering mode for native lenses is ESP (the equiv of multi-pattern) and the metering mode for adapted lenses is center average. I often set to spot for high contrast scenes. Center average best matches my other system thus feels more "familiar" with manual lenses.. I've never had a problem.


    Note....
    1) Ignore the "brightness" of the Life view. It doesn't reflect exposure accurately only composition.

    2) Digital cameras "ISO settings" are a toss back from film days for easier understanding but are not a true reflection of the ISO. Some camera's ISO settings will be slightly under or over in terms of sensitivity and will be different for each camera. DXOmark reports this discrepancy in their test reports for this reason. As such, I have a sticker under my cameras that tell me how "off" the ISO settings are. I have to take this into consideration when transferring exposure readings from my handheld meter to the camera.
     
  18. just4fun

    just4fun Mu-43 Rookie

    22
    Sep 11, 2010
    Wow guys, very wealth of infomation here and thanks a lots, I'll definetely do the experiment like usayit suggest tonight.
    The Sekonic's spot meter of course gave me the right settings all the time but I am trying to void bringing it with me :)

    With leica summicron 50mm f2, I get the right exposure most of the time but the https://www.mu-43.com/f81/leica-summaron-35mm-f-2-8-m-lens-5888/ often gave me that problem, usually needs to add around 2/3 EV or more - beside that, the lens is a superb performer for me.

    I also got wrong exposure with some of Canon FD lens.
    Sean
     
  19. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Now that's interesting... hmmm? Not sure what's causing the difference between the two Leica glass.

    I just swapped lenses between my Olympus kit 14-42 and a 35mm Summarit against the wall nearby on my G1. I didn't notice any obvious differences in exposures in multi-segment/pattern.. If you don't find time for the experiment, simply try shooting only in either spot or center average when shooting with adapted lenses and see what happens. IIRC, you can set one of the custom presets to make it easier to remember.
     
  20. photoSmart42

    photoSmart42 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    628
    Feb 12, 2010
    San Diego, CA
    ...yet you agree that it's a good method when used properly. Which is it? It's a perfectly good method to use, which is why I suggested it.