What to choose for photography? G95 (90) or G9

JamesD

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One thing to be aware of with the G9. If you lift shadows more than 2 stops, the magenta cast becomes unmanageable. Not so with the GX9, and apparently, not with the G95. I keep hearing that the sensors are the same but I'm not so sure because they certainly respond differently in this regard. I found sunrise and sunset images with the G9 required bracketing or graduated filters, because I certainly couldn't lift the foreground in post at all. Check out the ISO invariance test at DPReview. It's the main reason I sold my G9.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr134_0=panasonic_dcg95&attr134_1=panasonic_dcg9&attr134_2=panasonic_dcgx9&attr134_3=panasonic_dcg95&attr136_0=8&attr136_1=8&attr136_2=8&attr136_3=8&normalization=full&widget=702&x=0.07035229&y=0.4967085
 
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I don't really understand this categorization, to be honest. Yes, the G95 will shoot with no time limits, and has a sort of crippled 8-bit V-LogL profile included, but the G9 shoots no-crop video, and can shoot in 4K/60p. The G9 is actually one of the best video cameras on the market, right next to the GH5, it's just that it was marketed as being more "photo-centric" because too many people seemed to think that you can't shoot photos on the GH5, when in fact it's very good for that, too.

If I was very much into video, I would probably pick the G9 instead of the G95 every time...
First of all, don't take part of my post and quote me out of context. You neglected to include "I don't think you can wrong with either" from my post.

Video-centric means it doesn't have the 29 minute time limit and the built-in v-log. Photo-centric means it has the 29 minute time limit. There, was that so hard to understand? Not having the time limit and the built-in v-log (even if its crippled, its included in the price) means it is more video-centric. The use of the word "centric" doesn't preclude the use of the cameras for other uses - both cameras will take both videos and photos and they have the same sensor so it will be hard to tell the difference. But the time limit and built-in vlog are likely more important to some video shooters. If the time limit and built-in vlog are not important then, as I said in my previous post, "I don't think you can wrong with either"

Panasonic markets all of their cameras as ideal for hybrid use - both stills and photos, and I certainly agree that the GH5 is a very capable of taking photographs as well as video.
 

archaeopteryx

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I keep hearing that the sensors are the same but I'm not so sure because they certainly respond differently in this regard.
For what it's worth, the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In addition to external factors mentioned up thread it's possible there's some binning of sensors. Another possibility is the sensor layouts are the same but fabrication of G9 sensors uses a different or more controlled process tuning. Hard to say without knowing which terms are most significant to the overall error budget.
 

Turbofrog

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First of all, don't take part of my post and quote me out of context. You neglected to include "I don't think you can wrong with either" from my post.

Video-centric means it doesn't have the 29 minute time limit and the built-in v-log. Photo-centric means it has the 29 minute time limit. There, was that so hard to understand? Not having the time limit and the built-in v-log (even if its crippled, its included in the price) means it is more video-centric. The use of the word "centric" doesn't preclude the use of the cameras for other uses - both cameras will take both videos and photos and they have the same sensor so it will be hard to tell the difference. But the time limit and built-in vlog are likely more important to some video shooters. If the time limit and built-in vlog are not important then, as I said in my previous post, "I don't think you can wrong with either"

Panasonic markets all of their cameras as ideal for hybrid use - both stills and photos, and I certainly agree that the GH5 is a very capable of taking photographs as well as video.
Sorry for any offense, I wasn't so much responding to the broader content as the idea that the G9 is a "photo-centric" camera. I don't think it particularly is, and as I mentioned, it has video capabilities that only 2-3 other cameras in the entire camera market currently offer. Indeed, I think it is arguably one of the most complete hybrid photo/video cameras money can buy.

The G95 and G9 do not have the same sensor. The G95 is the older IMX269 which originated in the GX8, and does not have the readout speeds to shoot 4K without a crop, nor the ability to shoot 4K/60p at all. The G9 and GH5 share the newer IMX272 sensor, and they are the only Panasonic M4/3 cameras that have the full 4K feature-set, as well as "6K Photo" capabilities.

I would actually call the G95 more photocentric for these reasons!
 

Michael Meissner

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That method supposedly doens't work with the latest firmware (1.3) and according to a member who worked in a Panasonic service center and seen the results himself, it leads to damage of the sensor over time so its not recommended.
Yes, I read that in dpreview. Disappointing.

But it is really not surprising either that they removed the loophole after it was published by various people (including me). I can imagine that since the over-sampling of 4K does require more CPU power (and hence more heat) than a strict crop (like the G90/G95 uses). Perhaps over time that can lead to sensor degradation. Or perhaps it is just FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) spread by an unnamed source that no longer works for Panny. That would mean with the absence of GH5 level heat removal that long term it may lead to damage.

So for those of us looking to upgrade the G85 and we need more than 30 minute video, the G95 is the cheap upgrade, and the GH5 is the better version in terms of features. I just wish Panasonic would offer the G95 without the kit lens.
 

PippoPippo

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Hi Pippo, welcome ! Would you have a link for that G9, please ?
I saw that too, he probably meant 1100 EUR for the G9
I'm very sorry: I meant 1100 EUR, as observed by Tool Crazy. I edited my original post

I take the opportunity to add that currently there is the Fujifilm X-H1 which is priced, body only with vertical grip, in the 900 - 950 EUR area, after a 300 EUR rebate. X-H1 is the "sensor stabilezed" body of Fuji. I deem this offer has a very strong appeal compared with Panasonic G90.
 

Turbofrog

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I'm very sorry: I meant 1100 EUR, as observed by Tool Crazy. I edited my original post

I take the opportunity to add that currently there is the Fujifilm X-H1 which is priced, body only with vertical grip, in the 900 - 950 EUR area, after a 300 EUR rebate. X-H1 is the "sensor stabilezed" body of Fuji. I deem this offer has a very strong appeal compared with Panasonic G90.
Yes, it's a pretty crazy firesale that Fuji is having. They must be losing bags of money on that camera. But I suppose their loss is your gain!

And the fact that they aren't releasing an X-H2 until 2020 (if ever) is just repeating the same historical mistake again. Why would you ever release the top-end model with tail-end technology? 2020 is definitely too short to have a new sensor generation for Fuji, but when the X-T4 comes out (2021?) there's a reasonable chance it will...
 

CyVan

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Yes, I read that in dpreview. Disappointing.

But it is really not surprising either that they removed the loophole after it was published by various people (including me). I can imagine that since the over-sampling of 4K does require more CPU power (and hence more heat) than a strict crop (like the G90/G95 uses). Perhaps over time that can lead to sensor degradation. Or perhaps it is just FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) spread by an unnamed source that no longer works for Panny. That would mean with the absence of GH5 level heat removal that long term it may lead to damage.

So for those of us looking to upgrade the G85 and we need more than 30 minute video, the G95 is the cheap upgrade, and the GH5 is the better version in terms of features. I just wish Panasonic would offer the G95 without the kit lens.
He's actually a well known member of this forum so I trust his statement.
https://www.mu-43.com/threads/body-only-not-available.105046/post-1312919
 

Michael Meissner

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He's actually a well known member of this forum so I trust his statement.
https://www.mu-43.com/threads/body-only-not-available.105046/post-1312919
Fair enough. I don't believe he was identified on the article I read in dpreview (which is why I was suspected FUD).

As I said, I can imagine that heat can build up, and eventually ruin the sensor. While I was thinking perhaps of going with the G9, I suspect if I do decide to upgrade the Panasonic G85, it will be either the G95 or GH5.
 

CyVan

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Fair enough. I don't believe he was identified on the article I read in dpreview (which is why I was suspected FUD).

As I said, I can imagine that heat can build up, and eventually ruin the sensor. While I was thinking perhaps of going with the G9, I suspect if I do decide to upgrade the Panasonic G85, it will be either the G95 or GH5.
oh? What article is that?
 

archaeopteryx

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I can imagine that since the over-sampling of 4K does require more CPU power (and hence more heat) than a strict crop (like the G90/G95 uses).
Panasonic's 4k crop factors yield 13.1MP (1.1x crop on 15.8MP sensors) and 13.0MP (1.25x crop on 20.3MP sensors) rather than the 8.3MP of a 4k frame. There is some rounding in the numbers but, at least for 4k photo modes using a 4:3 aspect ratio, the reduction in pixel count is consistent with converting 5x5 pixel blocks from the sensor to 4x4 blocks in the video to three significant digits. This suggests resampling occurs in 4k crop operation and is performed similarly for both sensor generations. Also, 4k crop operation still requires clearing the whole sensor (to avoid bleed) and perhaps also reading and discarding the portion of lines intersecting the 4k area that's required to access the 4k pixels.

There is no synchronous sample rate conversion which appears likely for exact reduction of 20.3MP to 8.3MP. While asynchronous conversion is an option a simpler, synchronous choice for using most of the sensor would be a 1.04x crop and resampling 6x6 blocks to 4x4. Relative to extracting 4k from 13MP, this would increase read heat by about 46%, ADC heat by 49%, resampling heat by probably something around 80% depending on the method used, and have no effect on operations like zeroing. ADC is comparatively power intensive relative to digital calculation and, in this case, some quick estimates suggest the higher ADC rate would dominate changes in the thermal budget. So, as a rough number, perhaps +60% heat overall. (Exclusive of ADC reconfiguration to reduce power dissipation, anyway.)

One of Fuji's marketing points for their entry level X-A7 body is it renders 4k using 6k worth of pixels for lower noise. If a teardown of the body is published it might be interesting to look at what Fuji's doing for thermal management.

according to a member who worked in a Panasonic service center and seen the results himself, it leads to damage of the sensor over time so its not recommended
Having designed a number of passive and active cooling systems for electronics over the years, this strikes me as implausible. If, at the end of a 30 minute video one immediately starts the next recording, the time limitation results in 99.94+% uptime rather than the 100% of continuous recording. The LCD or EVF will continue to run in the remaining <0.06%, so the sensor remains 100% active regardless. As such, the two use cases appear barely differently thermally.

Should the warm up time exceed half an hour, a corollary is a following cool down time where video is disallowed would as well, barring some post-video procedure to dump the accumulated heat from the camera. In either case I presume such a limitation would be mentioned in the G9 manual, I'd have heard of it here, or it'd be mentioned in at least one of the several G9 reviews I've read. However, while I've worked with a number of systems with thermal time constants of hours, it would surprise me if die temperatures within a G9 were still changing meaningfully towards the end of a 30 minute video segment. (Given energy dissipation and cooling methods in the G9's range, such behaviour is usually associated with masses of kg rather than g.)

He's actually a well known member of this forum so I trust his statement.
Then perhaps a more detailed explanation of the thermodynamic behaviour can be provided.
 

CyVan

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Should the warm up time exceed half an hour, a corollary is a following cool down time where video is disallowed would as well, barring some post-video procedure to dump the accumulated heat from the camera. In either case I presume such a limitation would be mentioned in the G9 manual, I'd have heard of it here, or it'd be mentioned in at least one of the several G9 reviews I've read. However, while I've worked with a number of systems with thermal time constants of hours, it would surprise me if die temperatures within a G9 were still changing meaningfully towards the end of a 30 minute video segment. (Given energy dissipation and cooling methods in the G9's range, such behaviour is usually associated with masses of kg rather than g.)

Then perhaps a more detailed explanation of the thermodynamic behaviour can be provided.
Yea the only thing I could think of was that they just chose 30mins because that's their usual time limit and well within the thermal limits even during more adverse ambient conditions. But doing continuous recording over hours could be a problem.
Plus Marketing will use it as a differentiator from the more video-centric cameras.
 

archaeopteryx

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only thing I could think of was that they just chose 30mins because that's their usual time limit
The other main hypothesis I'm aware of is the 29:59 recording time limit is to avoid classification as a video recorder by the European Union. As of at least April 2016, the EU's position was import duties applied to devices capable of recording 30:00 or longer. However, the EU also agreed to remove the duty by July 2019, which is close to when the G90/91/95 started shipping. Whilst Panasonic would have to say something indicating one way or the other, which would be most unlike them, the camera capabilities and timing do match.

I've seen various speculation over whether this means Panasonic might or might not remove the G9's time limit in a firmware update. If they were going to do it my personal guess would be it'd be in the firmware released a couple weeks ago. I've also come across discussion about Fuji and Sony timing body shipments around the duty expiring but haven't fact checked on that, so not sure what level of internet bogosity to assign.
 

cluber77

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One thing to be aware of with the G9. If you lift shadows more than 2 stops, the magenta cast becomes unmanageable. Not so with the GX9, and apparently, not with the G95. I keep hearing that the sensors are the same but I'm not so sure because they certainly respond differently in this regard. I found sunrise and sunset images with the G9 required bracketing or graduated filters, because I certainly couldn't lift the foreground in post at all. Check out the ISO invariance test at DPReview. It's the main reason I sold my G9.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr134_0=panasonic_dcg95&attr134_1=panasonic_dcg9&attr134_2=panasonic_dcgx9&attr134_3=panasonic_dcg95&attr136_0=8&attr136_1=8&attr136_2=8&attr136_3=8&normalization=full&widget=702&x=0.07035229&y=0.4967085

I’m thinking to upgrade my canon 70D to G9 but this problem that you mention about the color cast and the problem with rubber coatings coming loose, I’m starting to worry, maybe I need to change my mind?
 

Darmok N Jalad

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I took the plunge and bought the G9. Most premium-feeling camera I've ever held. Seems very eager to take photos as well. The super high resolution mode is crazy.
 

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