What is the better option?

Discussion in 'This or That? (MFT only)' started by djd256, Mar 1, 2015.

  1. djd256

    djd256 Mu-43 Rookie

    18
    Mar 1, 2013
    Need help advising on getting a new m4/3 setup.

    Which option to choose for shooting in low light ?

    1. EM-10 + Zuiko 25mm 1.8

    2. EPM-2 + Zuiko 25mm 1.8 + 45mm 1.8

    Roughly the same price range.

    Thank you
     
  2. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    E-M10 and 25mm 1.8. In Low light, the 3 axis IBIS helps gain you a few more stops using a slower shutter speed so you can use lower ISOs to reduce noise, increase DR and increase detail in shots which would have been destroyed by noise or noise reduction. Of course, the newer E-M5 Mk 2 would have been sweeter.:clapping:
     
  3. djd256

    djd256 Mu-43 Rookie

    18
    Mar 1, 2013
    Thanks
     
  4. davidzvi

    davidzvi Mu-43 All-Pro

    Aug 12, 2012
    Outside Boston MA
    David
    Assuming you know that you want m4/3 I would also say E-M10. It's a great camera and a solid base to build a system on.

    New or used? There's a lot of good used glass out there.
     
  5. agentlossing

    agentlossing Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jun 26, 2013
    Andrew Lossing
    EM10. I'll have the 25mm lens in my hot little hands soon and let you know what I think of it ;)

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Mu-43 mobile app
     
  6. flamingfish

    flamingfish Mu-43 Top Veteran

    771
    Nov 16, 2012
    Emily
    Just FYI, for your future lens acquisitions, particularly if you're buying used -- it makes a difference whether the lens is "M. Zuiko" or just "Zuiko." "M. Zuiko" is for micro 4/3 mount. Plain "Zuiko" is for 4/3 mount. You can use 4/3 mount lenses with a micro 4/3 system, but you need an adapter.

    I know the lenses you're talking about are M. Zuiko, so maybe you just didn't feel like typing the whole thing, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.
     
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  7. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Lowering the shutter speed only helps if your subjects are not living. I was shooting 1/60th yesterday and still had lots of motion blur from my daughter just casually moving. Really I'd say you need 1/80+ to comfortably shoot people without motion blur and 1/200 if they are moving at all. IBIS only helps you go a couple stops under 1/EFL rule, so maybe between 1/10 and 1/50 shutter speed. There are shockingly few uses for those speeds for anything but shooting inanimate object. They are even too slow for shooting many landscapes as you will have blurry leaves and grass from a slight breeze.

    I guess I'll have to ask what the OP is shooting in low light before I can answer.
     
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  8. agentlossing

    agentlossing Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jun 26, 2013
    Andrew Lossing
    Yep, I'd want to keep the shutter around 1/250 to freeze motion, but, as I was saying on another thread, I feel motion blur is often an underused element in photography. IBIS helps a lot in getting those handheld shots where you need a slow enough shutter to blur either subject or background.
     
  9. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    When I shoot in low light; I forgo trying to freeze motion unless I have to. I try to show some life in the city. If you're shooting weddings or corporate events, then yes you need at least 1/125s. As you found out, 1/60sec is not enough to freeze motion. The E-M10's new Truepic VII processor and Sony sensor is pretty good at controlling noise and maintaining detail at higher ISOs.

    There are 2 groups of people and both of them are right; one group who shoots landscapes and people with blur (we call them the Impressionists because in the past, these people can't see clearly due to near/far sighted issues and there were no corrective lenses available during these Victorian period). Think Art Wolfe and Vincent Versace and Ernst Haas not because they can't see without glasses but because they follow this kind of style. And then we have people (we call them the perfectionists) who shoot leaves and grass and flowers tack sharp devoid of movement. Vincent Versace once commented his friend photographer who is extremely well established that he would shoot wild flowers with uncanny sharpness devoid of a single movement. He would use custom built wind screens and even clip the stem of the flower to prevent it from moving. Mr. Versace said to the audience; what's wrong with this picture of this wild flower?!? Notice that it is dead still. There is no halo around it; no movement. Can you see a real wild flower dead still in real life even though there's a slight breeze? He also commented -- where do you find people with no halo around it? He exclaimed; in the morgue. He meant, the blurriness exemplified life; halo of life because human muscle twitches and our eyes are trained to see real living human beings as well as wild flowers and trees that swing due to a slight breeze. What Vincent eludes to is that, people are too technical in trying to freeze an object that they have forgotten that object is a living being.

    If you look at Diane Arbus and Vivian Maier's work, some of them have blur in it. The blur component brings the life aspect of the photo. But then again; there's nothing wrong with freezing the life into a frozen slab with no blur, no muscle twitches and so forth. So therefore, it depends on the OP's shooting style; impressionists or perfectionists.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
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  10. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    Motion blur is an underused element in photography because most people don't really understand the concept of it. Most photographers who use motion blur like Ernst Haas and Art Wolfe and Vincent Versace understood that in life, nothing is dead still. Everything moves. Life has a halo or aura around it and motion blur, when used properly, can be a representative element of life itself.

    Sadly in forums, we all talk about the scientific aspect of photography where we measure the IQ of a picture in terms of sharpness and no blur and ultraprints where you can see every single detail. Usually, the photographer has no story to tell because the point is to show exactly what he or she sees, so goes on to perform technical photography which then forces him or her to ensure everything dead perfect. That is what we viewers zero in on when we see a photograph that doesn't tell us anything. So then we dissect it like a brain surgeon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  11. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    i can't imagine either of you shoot more than a small percentage of your shots with intentional motion blur, regardless of whether it can be useful for certain shots.
     
  12. agentlossing

    agentlossing Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jun 26, 2013
    Andrew Lossing
    Precisely!!

    Sent from my Nexus 6 using Mu-43 mobile app
     
  13. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    No; it's only in the right moment. I usually decide if I'm going to include motion blur when my shutter drops below 1/60sec and the scene works. I have fast enough primes and DXO Optics Pro "Prime" noise reduction that I can jack up ISO higher to get a faster shutter speed. Same with dynamic range too in low light -- either I drop the shadows or turn it into black and white and create a story out of it. Photography is not some sort of logic rule thingy to follow; at least for me.. LOL :yahoo:
     
  14. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    pellicle
    as long as you're not photographing people in which case if they move you're sunk ...

    13483932465_ff1e9feef5_z.

    ok for inside temples and dark buildings, but personally I've always managed to get by.

    To the OP: you seem to be picking between cameras which don't have have an EVF to allow picking another lens ... why not consider a used body with an EVF and then the lenses?
     
  15. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    Then you need to learn how to use flash trailing curtain or also known as 2nd curtain sync.. This image works better if the faces are sharp and the bodies are moving. Look at the example below of a martial artist.. This is basic flash photography skill; but it seemed some people today hate to use a flash as though it is some plague or because full frame sensors can do low light vampire type photographs..

    https://www.google.ca/search?q=flash+trailing+curtain&biw=1908&bih=931&tbm=isch&imgil=1fYHwqEslEbmXM%3A%3BP-GbFHdZxtYUeM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fyanikphotoschool.com%252Ftips%252Fthe-joys-of-rear-curtain-flash%252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=1fYHwqEslEbmXM%3A%2CP-GbFHdZxtYUeM%2C_&usg=__nHpsYKO2xU_fOzlFPPdguo1mIEw=&ved=0CD4Qyjc&ei=BTf1VJf7FsjLoATl5oLoAQ#imgdii=_&imgrc=HqbwoWVg70hlLM%3A;gRjPG0BvQXlOFM;http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.digital-photo-secrets.com%2Fimages%2Fflickr%2F5486096744_8149420f2a.jpg;http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digital-photo-secrets.com%2Ftip%2F3326%2Fhow-to-use-rear-curtain-flash-for-creative-photos%2F;500;333
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  16. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    pellicle
    I actually know well how to use that (I've been using flashes through the evolution from AutoFlash through TTL and 1st and 2nd curtain sync) ... but as it happens I just happen to like ambient light.

    Anyway as soon as you draw out the "flash" card you've got an effectively higher shutter speed (the flash duration) and so IBIS makes even less point....
     
  17. dornblaser

    dornblaser Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 13, 2012
    Chicago-area
    David Dornblaser
    I would get the E-M10. The 25mm is a nice prime. I would try to purchase the E-M10 with the 14-42 II kit lens; it is usually a very nominal additional charge. It is not a bad kit lens and the normal zoom will give you great versatility.
     
  18. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Seems like the OP is OK without a viewfinder and serious controls (a.k.a the E-M2) and can afford the E-M10 and a 25mm f1.8 (so about $900). I'd probably go with the E-PL5 ($399 with kit zoom) and a used 20mm ($250) or 25mm ($300) and a used 45mm f1.8 ($225) or Sigma 60mm f2.8 ($160 used/$209 new). That's $850-900, and gives a solid kit lens, same sensor and IBIS as E-M10, a fast normal and fast portrait prime. The controls on the E-PL5 aren't as good as E-M10, but they are better than the E-PM2.

    Lenses are way more important than the body. If you have to skimp ALWAYS skimp on the camera. You can work around slightly more noise or worse IBIS, but you can't make a kit lens have high shutter speeds in low light or provide nice shallow DOF portraits. You can't make a 25mm f1.8 look like a short telephoto prime, either.

    Too bad this turned into a confusing thread about the artistry of motion blur.
     
  19. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    pellicle
    Hi

    That's sort of how I feel, but I'd always go for the best performing older camera ... personally I'd pick a good GH2 from KEH for a couple of hundred. I know that it does so many things better than an EPM2 ... fully articulated screen, great EVF ... good video

    Never too late to swing it back to the OP's question ;-)
     
  20. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    Flash duration is the speed of light so to speak. Shutter speed "does not" control flash exposure; only aperture. Basically a flash exposure is a combination of ambient exposure (shutter speed + aperture) and flash exposure determined by distance and guide number and aperture used. Most people usually use first curtain sync which then in fact makes it look like it has high speed sync. In the case of the 2nd curtain sync, you are "dragging" the shutter to prolong the ambient exposure followed by a flash exposure. If the shutter speed is 1/2 sec, it is 1/2 sec.

    What does IBIS has anything to do with this? Imagine what 1/2 sec can do to the blur. It becomes wavy blur if that's what you want effect wise. I think there are examples of that. If you want natural motion blur travelling in a conforming path, then IBIS is needed in place of a tripod or monopod. Because that 1/2sec is like the sensor videotaping the scene. You've seen what IBIS does to a video capture; it stabilizes it.

    Which is why I adore Oly's 5 axis IBIS a lot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015