What do we want in a possible Pen F successor?

drd1135

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Pluttis

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There is not enough room in the PEN F body for all features/performance you ask for. And the price would be too high.
Existing Pen-F is not much smaller than E-M5 MarkIII so dont think it would need to get much bigger to fit a bigger EVF and joystick.

With such futures/performance i dont see any real problem with it being priced in same range as E-M1 MarkIII.
 

davidzvi

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Existing Pen-F is not much smaller than E-M5 MarkIII so dont think it would need to get much bigger to fit a bigger EVF and joystick.

With such futures/performance i dont see any real problem with it being priced in same range as E-M1 MarkIII.
Not much, but remember the EVF is within the body, not stuck on top AND the E-M5.3 has a smaller battery.
 
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ADemuth

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My wishlist, in order of preference (which, oddly enough the things I want most could be fixed on every Pen-F out there). These are based off of my existing cameras, I don't have a Pen-F in hand to criticize.


Things that should already be there but aren't, and could be fixed with a firmware update but haven't:

Clean up the menu system and allow snapshot MySet settings (basically, save *every single* setting the camera currently has, get rid of the button weirdness where certain button functions don't get recalled in a MySet change. The ability to alter MySettings on a PC/Phone would be nice.

Make the front dial just another dial and have it be customizable.


Things that will probably be there and have been poorly implemented in current the EM5iii:

USB-C Power - not just battery charging, I want to connect my phone to a monster power bank or AC adapter for long exposures/live composites/time lapses, this would also be nice for studio work. It would also be nice to review photos/mess around with settings without using up battery.

HR artifact handling - improved motion artifact handling please. Maybe HHHR, if that helps out with artifact handling.


Big changes (ie. hardware) that would be nice, but wouldn't really make or break it for me.

Tilt screen that some how lets us fold it in so it's protected OR make sure I can select the AF point on the screen while I look through the VF

WR with a ONLY OF some small WR primes are introduced. I have no desire to carry such a tiny camera with any of the huge WR primes Oly has available.

PDAF or better CAF (I've heard grumblings about CAF on the Pen-F, but as long as it's a good as or better than my EM5ii, I'd be happy)

Improved sensor - better low light performance rather than more pixels. You could make me happy with 16Mpix, but I know it'd have to have 20Mpix at minimum to compete unless the low light performance was phenominal.

Heck - Phenominal low light performance.



I could also get excited about something along the lines of a GM1, but would really like IBIS shoehorned in there (even if it only gives a couple of stops of IS) Since you can't anchor a camera without a VF against your face, such a tiny body really benefits from image stabilization.



Make it a fifties-style rangefinder with digital back.

no AF
no P,S,A, only M
no colour
no communication between lens and body whatsoever.
24 MP sensor
No screens or monitors or viewfinder
As small as the sensor allows
Always connected to internet (like a smartphone)
No frills: a manual of 4 pages max
Price, max €$ 4000,-
How does one set up the internet without a screen? The sim card/internet setup alone would take up a solid page or more of a manual, especially without a screen of any sort. How do you focus a digital lens with no communication between the lens and body? Also, manually focusing using digital lenses sucks.

You, sir, have just described a (not very) low budget Leica. Asking Leica to take away the screen and add internet to their Monochrom line would more likely to happen.
 

Pluttis

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Not much, but remember the EVF is withing the body, not stuck on top AND the E-M5.3 has a smaller battery.
True but still doubt it would be much bigger with a EVF that have slightly bigger magnification and higher res.

Pen-F is smaller than E-M5 MarkII and the biggest differens between them are the EVF...do you think the Pen-F would be that much bigger if they would put the E-M5 MarkII EVF in it?
 

ADemuth

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True but still doubt it would be much bigger with a EVF that have slightly bigger magnification and higher res.

Pen-F is smaller than E-M5 MarkII and the biggest differens between them are the EVF...do you think the Pen-F would be that much bigger if they would put the E-M5 MarkII EVF in it?
I may be incorrect here, but I'm pretty sure higher magnification means a larger EVF unit. Additioinally, optics can't just be wired over to another, less crowded part of the camera like electronics can, nor can you put stuff in the optic path. I'm sure that if Oly could have just used the EM5ii EVF, they would have.

I think the reason they went with the smaller EVF is because they wanted it to be a smaller camera.
 

Pluttis

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I may be incorrect here, but I'm pretty sure higher magnification means a larger EVF unit. Additioinally, optics can't just be wired over to another, less crowded part of the camera like electronics can, nor can you put stuff in the optic path. I'm sure that if Oly could have just used the EM5ii EVF, they would have.

I think the reason they went with the smaller EVF is because they wanted it to be a smaller camera.
Off course a higher magnification EVF would be slightly bigger but it would not take up that much more space...the difference will be minimal if for example going up from 0.62x to 0.74x magnification.

Its probably easier to distribute the space in a range finder styled body...just compare E-M10 MarkIII and Pen-F....same Evf/magnification but Pen-F is only slightly wider even that it has bigger battery, more direct dails and swivel screen that takes up more space.
 
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wimg

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Better viewfinder (higher resolution, a little bigger), weather sealing, a grip, preferably one that allows the accomodation of a larger battery.
AF like the E-M1 Mk II.
And of course, barring the grip, the size should stay the same.

Kind regards, Wim
 

ADemuth

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Its probably easier to distribute the space in a range finder styled body
Easier than sticking a lump on top of the camera of the dimensions needed?

To be fair, a larger, better EVF is an improvement that is definitely keeping with the spirit of the PEN series - the PENs are plush cameras, a huge VF should be a priority - bright viewfinders are why I like using old rangefinders over SLRs.

In the end, who knows, we didn't make the camera, but I think that Olympus tried to make it as luxurious as possible within set boundaries - when you look at the side comparisons, the PEN-F is svelte, especially when you look at how long the "lump" is of the cameras with higher magnification EVFs are.
 
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Pluttis

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Easier than sticking a lump on top of the camera of the dimensions needed?
Its not just to slap a lump on top of the camera...the diffrent desings allows for different layouts when it come to placing controls, pcb layouts etcetera.

Pen-F would not be any smaller if you slapped the Evf in the middle...it would probably just end up being taller but still having same width and thickness as before...it would basically have same dimensions as E-M5 MarkII
 
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ADemuth

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Its not just to slap a lump on top of the camera...the diffrent desings allows for different layouts when it come to placing controls, pcb layouts etcetera.

Pen-F would not be any smaller if you slapped the Evf in the middle...it would probably just end up being taller but still having same width and thickness as before...it would basically bee same size as E-M5 MarkII
Yes, I understand that the two cameras aren't identical. Moving the EVF would not change the internal volume of the PEN F, putting a larger one in would. With proper EMI mitigation and component placement, and PCB layout, electrons are pretty amenable about their path. Photons are less flexible. I believe you couldn't fit a x.74 EVF, which is likely larger, into the PEN F body without making it bigger, and once you start making it bigger, the thing that I think most people like about it (the size) starts to disappear.

Looking at the measurements, the PEN-F is practically the same width and depth as the EM5mkii (+/- <1mm) but the PEN F is 13mm shorter. The EVF hump on the EM5 mkii is ~13.5mm tall (as measured from the next highest point of the camera - the mode dial lock while depressed, measured with calipers). The EVF hump is deeper than the entire PEN F - 43mm as measured from the lens mount to the rear optic, cushion removed, It's 46mm to the front of the hump, and 52mm, overall with the cushion (which is notably flush on the PEN, meaning the optics are recessed a bit.)


I have a hard time believing that, just for grins, Olympus included an inferior EVF on a flagship camera with a premium price tag a year after a lesser model with a superior EVF was released, thinking nobody would notice, especially given that that EVF was a new part (both optics and the OLED view screen) they had to source and design around.
 
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piggsy

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As an E-P5 owner (and who still likes it a lot better than the E-M1ii, guts aside) I found nothing to like in the F.

I feel like it should absolutely capitalise on the rangefinder body and what that allows the camera to be and do.

I'd like a flip screen that is ridiculously positional - they should go further than anyone has contemplated and let you articulate it over the top, bottom and sides of the camera, taking it past what you could do with the PL-10. If they should let you push it right up against the front of the lens, reversed, that'd be even better.

I'd love them to make the EVF operate like a 90 degree socket inside the body, so it can rotate to let you look down into it, or use it horizontally.

It has to be weather sealed, and they should launch weather sealed versions of the 17/25/45 with it, and an updated sealed pancake zoom.

It should improve the interface for viewing and selecting shots, borrowing from things like post-focus and pro capture, allowing them to be saved as a video, an animation, time lapse, from the same input images. They should something similar to FastRawViewer's techniques of letting you preview the critical focus areas of RAWs at zoom, with screen sharpening/shadow boosting/focus peaking on saved images.

I'd love to see a return of something like the PM-2's rotatable wheel around the directional arrow/ok button and use this to simplify the interface further.
 
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Love the PEN-F, it's a great camera. In my hands I found it to be the most fun and effective with the small f1.7-1.8 primes and small zooms (Olympus 9-18mm, Panasonic 35-100mm). None of those are weather sealed, so unless Olympus and Panasonic start rolling out weather sealed versions of all the tiny high quality lenses in the system, a weather sealed PEN wouldn't move the needle much for me. A big clear viewfinder, faster AF, and generally more responsive operation would get me to come back to m43 down the line. Wouldn't want the body any smaller, and I think the current haptics are satisfying and engaging.
 

Pluttis

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Yes, I understand that the two cameras aren't identical. Moving the EVF would not change the internal volume of the PEN F, putting a larger one in would. With proper EMI mitigation and component placement, and PCB layout, electrons are pretty amenable about their path. Photons are less flexible. I believe you couldn't fit a x.74 EVF, which is likely larger, into the PEN F body without making it bigger, and once you start making it bigger, the thing that I think most people like about it (the size) starts to disappear.

Looking at the measurements, the PEN-F is practically the same width and depth as the EM5mkii (+/- <1mm) but the PEN F is 13mm shorter. The EVF hump on the EM5 mkii is ~13.5mm tall (as measured from the next highest point of the camera - the mode dial lock while depressed, measured with calipers). The EVF hump is deeper than the entire PEN F - 43mm as measured from the lens mount to the rear optic, cushion removed, It's 46mm to the front of the hump, and 52mm, overall with the cushion (which is notably flush on the PEN, meaning the optics are recessed a bit.)


I have a hard time believing that, just for grins, Olympus included an inferior EVF on a flagship camera with a premium price tag a year after a lesser model with a superior EVF was released, thinking nobody would notice, especially given that that EVF was a new part (both optics and the OLED view screen) they had to source and design around.
Off course it would not change if you just could do it so easy but you cant...cuse you would end up with a diffrent camera desing with diffrent layouts of the buttons and dails...even with the smaller Evf you would end up with a camera with a size like the EM5 MarkII.

If you ever have handle a Leica CL you would know it would not be any problem fitting that Evf into a Pen-F without having to do the camera much bigger...especially if you keep the current Pen-F desing with similar button/dail layout...think most users would go for a slightly bigger Pen-F if the Evf is notably bigger.

Think we can discuss this back and forth to eternity...sorry for off topic.

Personally i would gladely take a slightly bigger Pen-F if the Evf got notably bigger magnification...i dont have big hands but would not mind if it where little taller.
 
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nstelemark

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The problem with WR is that Oly has no small WR primes. I don’t want a small camera with a big lens just to be WR.
The PenF works pretty well with the 12-35f2.8. The 56f1.4 is also a good fit with the PenF. So for me a weather sealed PenF would be fantastic. And really I could live with all the other shortcomings.

The 12-45f4 also looks like a great fit with a PenF sized body.

However, a weather sealed pancake would be ideal I agree. A 20f.17III or a 17f.18II with sealing would be great. The Sigma 16f1.4 is really too big.
 
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