Wake up mft, time to go Medium Format.

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by TheMenWhoDrawSheeps, Sep 16, 2016.

  1. TheMenWhoDrawSheeps

    TheMenWhoDrawSheeps Mu-43 Veteran

    Jun 15, 2016
    I think it is nevitable upgrade which many manufacturers will have to make.
    As far as next year we will have at least 2 more players in the MF size World - Fuji, and most probably Sony, since they build MF size Sensor.
    For Fuji it was a straight ahead decision - they don't really need FF, as they already have nice aps-c lineup with lenses fully equivalent to ff competitor.
    So does MFT, but they seem not to have any desire to expand their market beyond mft mount. We already have one of the most extensive lineups in the world, and there is almost no place for much more growth - Yeah it's always nice to have updated lenses, but it makes only little sense to put all the effort in it.
    Exept for that only way to develop in Image quality is either Sensor technology or Sensor size.
    Since Sensor technology isn't doing really good yet (Sony Sensors on Olympus, what a shame), i really don't see, why Olympus isn't even considering such an Option.
    FF would be biggest mistake - we have equivalent enough System to compete with ff in many ways, we don't need to run up.

    So what do you think - Yay or any, do we want / need it, or we don't.

    Gosh it looks like many have taken it rather like "abandon mft, go MF". I'm speaking of an implementary System, not and never abandoning their mft sweet spot, but also seeing a niche of larger Format.

    By the way, the expectancy of future medium Format System camera's is between 4-8k$
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  2. Carbonman

    Carbonman Mu-43 All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Jul 10, 2014
    Vancouver BC
    'We' may want more resolution, DR et al, but this horse's been beaten so many times. What the vast majority of people have more than meets their needs. The type of photographer that used to shoot pictures on film with 110, 126 or perhaps compact 35mm viewfinder cameras now have measurably better cameras in their phones. Enthusiast photographers have cameras in the 4/3rds format that produce higher resolution images than medium format film cameras are capable of producing. MF is only useful for a very limited user group. It's very expensive and forces photographers to shoot differently than with smaller format systems.
    Each format has a 'most favorable use' niche; the 'not good enough' issues arise from users wanting the next adjacent format or technology's advantages with the stuff they already have, as excellent as it already is.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
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  3. dornblaser

    dornblaser Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Aug 13, 2012
    David Dornblaser
    How can it be MFT beyond the MFT mount? :026:
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  4. hazwing

    hazwing Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 25, 2012
    Isn't medium format $$$? This might put it out of reach for most enthusiast
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  5. Giiba

    Giiba Something to someone somewhere

    Aug 19, 2016
    New Westminster, BC
    What I don't get about people who are down on m4/3 is that what we get in a modern camera is amazing compared to what was possible just a decade ago.

    I remembered this article from just a little bit ago. A quote:
    "Image quality is a multidimensional thing, some of which can be quantified and some not. Still, by no measure of image quality does a good Micro 4/3 camera and lens perform more poorly than a good medium format film rig, and by some measures it performs considerably better. My overall subjective evaluation is that the aggregate image quality of Micro 4/3 today, in film terms, falls midway between 6x7 medium format and 4x5-inch large format."

    So sure FF or MF digital is superior to what we get with m4/3 now but... just how big do you need to print? How much cropping do you need? The e-m1 is rated at 12 stops of dynamic range, whereas I was happy with the results from slide film with a paltry 6 stops. I understand the technical desires, but we're at the point hifi audio is at; the $30 bluetooth speaker I own sounds awesome, and to do just a little better (which only a few would even notice) it is gonna cost big $$$$$.

    I say leave the technical forefront to other companies; I hope Olympus mainains it's financial health and keeps offering pleasing to use cameras for a long time. I'd rather current performance get cheaper than the price stay the same and performance improving. Not that that would be feasible; Olympus will need to keep innovating to maintain itself. Plus, MF cameras are HUGE! And I don't want that at all.

    Just my 2¢ :biggrin:

    When Will Micro 4/3 Equal Medium-Format Film? We Have the Definitive Answer
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  6. Nathanael

    Nathanael Mu-43 Veteran

    Oct 12, 2015
    Not remotely interested. To say it's an inevitable upgrade...
    This is not an upgrade:
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  7. Giiba

    Giiba Something to someone somewhere

    Aug 19, 2016
    New Westminster, BC
    The 645d has it's place, but that place is not in my backpack.
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  8. TheMenWhoDrawSheeps

    TheMenWhoDrawSheeps Mu-43 Veteran

    Jun 15, 2016
    There are enough folk there willing to buy a hasselblad for their wifey, so she can photograph a kitty (especially russian forums)
    But we are talking about making MF affordable like 4000$(in few years can be done) range for the body
  9. SVQuant

    SVQuant Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Sep 20, 2015
    SF Bay Area, California, USA

    I am curious as to who you think benefits from this proposal.

    As of last year's results, Olympus's camera division is losing money. They are continuing research and developing for their existing system in the hope of making the camera division profitable. Would you suggest that they develop a new system which will either increase their R&D spending or reduce spending on their existing system (m43). And how do you think this will help Olympus's bottom line. From the rumor site, it appears that they design full frame and medium format optics from time to time. One hopes that they are able to sell these help fund R&D for m43.

    As an end-user, I do not see what the synergy between an m43 and medium format camera from the same manufacturer would be. You cannot use the same lenses because the image circles are so different. This means that if a m43 user want a medium format camera, they will have to invest a complete new system. So they might as well go with one of the existing players in that market.
  10. TheMenWhoDrawSheeps

    TheMenWhoDrawSheeps Mu-43 Veteran

    Jun 15, 2016

    Well how did pentax profited from it's MF size bodies? Did it diminished it's aps-c sized cellary? No it didn't. It rather advertised the company being a professional camera manufacturer, rather than a niche company.

    As for usage of Medium format i didn't say that every mft shooter will have to upgrade to MF camera. BUT ask yourself how many professional users which are ackknowledged with Olympus wouldn't get a MF camera in price range of 4-6k? Especially if Olympus takes all it's work and experience and apply it for MF.
    Fuji is doing it, apparently for no reason.)
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  11. This is not film, with large negatives, large prints, and so on. You shoot with a MF digital camera and you've got nothing to show for it except lots of large pixels. Who's going to put a monster telephoto on one of those things and shoot birds?
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  12. SVQuant

    SVQuant Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Sep 20, 2015
    SF Bay Area, California, USA
    I am not sure that you understand business at all. I would suggest you look at Pentax financials and see how they make money.
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  13. sphexx

    sphexx Mu-43 Regular

    Feb 19, 2010
    Harrogate, Yorkshire
    Pentax is a hobby company for Ricoh, something they spend their spare change on because they love photography.
  14. Leighgion

    Leighgion Mu-43 Regular

    Aug 1, 2012
    Madrid, Spain
    Leigh L Pang
    Yeah, nay.

    For financial reasons alone, jumping into Medium Format digital would be absurd for M4/3 camera companies. They have no analog history in the format, so they'd be developing everything from scratch in order to produce big, heavy, expensive, boutique, products they'd only be able to sell handfuls of at best.
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  15. piggsy

    piggsy Mu-43 All-Pro

    Even at 8-12+ grand a camera kinds of prices I wonder how much money people reaaaallly think there is in this to support more than a few players.
  16. David A

    David A Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 30, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    When I first started out in photography I started with 35mm film, admired Ansel Adams and other photographers who shot with 8x10 view cameras, and wondered about some day moving to a large format camera. I ended up downsizing my film size and eventually dropped out of photography for a while before returning some years ago and starting out with m43. Every now and then I wonder about going medium format digital. I always seem to have a bit of a pull to larger formats.

    But over time I've come to realise that small formats, 35mm film in my old days and m43 now, suit me. I can get results I like and I like the size of the cameras, their easy portability, and the ability to shoot hand held with ease. I have a tripod but use it rarely. I don't like the process involved in shooting from a tripod, I like to work much quicker than a tripod allows.

    And I've come to realise that if you look back over the history of photography the trend has always been to smaller formats. When Leica came out with the first 35mm camera all the professionals derided it, said it would never be capable of delivering professional quality. What happened was that camera and film technology improved, image quality from 35mm improved but so did image quality for larger formats because the film and camera improvements had an impact for them as well, and 35mm became the dominant format replacing medium to large formats in many fields. What also happened was that photographic styles also changed because 35mm allowed photographers to work in new ways and create a quite different style of work. Large film formats became more of a niche market. That trend to smaller formats has also been happening with digital and I suspect it will continue. People using "full frame" digital still raise doubts about smaller formats but still there is a trend of professionals who had previously used full frame moving to smaller formats.

    I know that medium format has attractions and larger sensors always have advantages just as larger film sizes still have advantages over 35mm but over time the small formats always seem to become capable of delivering quality which is pretty much equivalent to what the larger formats delivered a few years before. Larger formats can deliver better image quality but image quality is improving over time for all formats and sooner or later whatever level of image quality is considered "good enough" for professional use is available from the smaller formats. Some photographers do move to larger formats but overall I think more photographers move to smaller formats over the same period. I can't see that trend changing given that it's been happening consistently now for well over a century.

    Every now and then I find myself considering moving to the "latest and greatest" full frame system but always end up deciding against it because I don't want to have to deal with the larger size and weight of the bodies and lenses. m43 suits me. Our cameras and lenses are improving, I keep learning how to get a bit more our of my images, and the system suits me. I find myself considering a larger format less and less often over time.

    Medium format digital certainly has its place in the photographic world and it has advantages that smaller formats don't have but the smaller formats also have their place and their own advantages, and their place keeps getting larger while the place that larger formats occupy seems to keep shrinking slowly. I use Olympus bodies and if Olympus introduced a full frame or medium format system I'd definitely look at it and probably even have a bout of gear envy but I'd probably stick with m43. I suspect any new format which ends up tempting me to leave m43 behind would probably be smaller rather than larger. The trend in photography so far has always been to smaller formats and I don't think that trend is going to change, even though we are likely to see the occasional new medium or larger format introduced.
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  17. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    I agreed with everything and was about to click agree when I read this
    bwaaaa ahahahaha

    only if you're stitching ... have you ever used 6x9 in 120 roll? Heck even my Bessa with a skopa did it on so many levels, but higher quality stuff from the 70's and on was just a romp.

    even 645 will give 43'rds a run for its money on every single aspect except convenience and size ...
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  18. pellicle

    pellicle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 10, 2010
    Southport, OzTrailEYa
    agreed .. its a great system and I love it.

    I've read that before ... a dearth of actual evidence ... good enough for sure ... better is a whole different story
  19. fader

    fader Mu-43 Top Veteran

    Aug 20, 2016
    Brest, France
    "dollar for dollar, post-processing skills are the best upgrade you can make in your photography *system*" words from a pro photographer friend of mine, and I've always come back to his disappointing yet accurate advice whenever I want to spend a large sum on a camera. My PP skills are still poor to mediocre, but I note that from landscape to macro to astrophography, most of the interesting things I see being done really are with compacts or dedicated cell phone snappers. Then the photographer upgrades to 2 year old DSLR equipment and becomes that much better. Creativity is driven by constraint. The majority of FF photography on Flickr seems to be done by people who are very impressed with themselves for having purchased a "real" camera, then immediately look for ways to exploit the technical limits of whatever piece of pricey gear. Do we need millions of MF tourist snaps and blog "sample" photos? No thanks.
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  20. panamike

    panamike Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Jul 5, 2016
    Lincolnshire UK
    Just pleased i got the medium format itch well scratched many years ago
    • Agree Agree x 1
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