Unconfirmed: Sony bypasses Nikon for #2 FF OEM spot

Discussion in 'Other Systems' started by Speedliner, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. Speedliner

    Speedliner Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Mar 2, 2015
    Southern NJ, USA
    Rob
    no article to link yet. Just buzz from rumor sites that Sony announces gains in FF sales to displace Nikon as #2 FF vendor.

    I get a lot of Sony's gain is actually due to Canon 5d.4 disappointment and migration of canon users to Sony than Nikon FF losses. Both vendors need a major FF mirrorless win.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    Well that's very interesting indeed.

    As you say, if Nikon's business hasn't dropped dramatically, the stakes are not really changed in a material way, since Canon is just rolling in big piles of money (the brand recognition and loyalty they enjoy seems to have little precedent in any other market - witness the huge success of their half-ass EOS-M system).

    But it's definitely a psychological barrier that's been broken if Sony pips Nikon. If they weren't planning on it already, I would certainly hope that it lights a fire under the butts of Canon and Nikon to realize that mirrorless is the future. Maybe waking a sleeping giant.

    If it leads to better, cheaper, more compatible, and more available mirrorless systems, I'm all for it. As much as I like them, if worst comes to worst, I don't need to be using M4/3 if there's finally a good enough alternative on the market to replace them.
     
  3. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    There seemed to be a lot of fake news going around the photographic community. First we had incorrect reporting of Panasonic leaving the camera business and then we had Ricoh leaving and then this..

    I had worked in the photographic industry for close to 3 decades and personally, I see this to be based on hearsay. Nikon is second to Canon and Sony is third and has been for quite sometime. In order for Sony to become 2nd, there has to be either a huge sell-off of Nikon gear (Nikon D810 and Nikon D5/D500) or a major increase (like pre-2009 era) in Sony gear purchases in a market that's decreasing. To me, this sounds fishy and sounds like another fake news..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    Press release:

    It's in the North American market only, so that kind of deflates it a fair bit. That's only ~30% of the world market.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  5. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    While it's true that Sony has been on selling the A7 series quite well, this only showed that Canon and Nikon had nothing yet to show for in terms of their own mirrorless full frame. And these cameras they mentioned aren't cheap, so it's not like they are attracting a lot of new user base. What Sony offered is an alternative second camera good for video and higher end stills that can be adapted for Canon and Nikon lenses, but they are not by any means mature products like the Nikon and Canon offerings. So yes, the growth of full frame mirrorless can seen to have grown but only for recent years when Nikon had nothing else to show for. So you would expect a decline in full frame sales -- duh! :bump: The Nikon D810 came out in 2014 and is already due for a renewal and the Df is also due for a renewal. If Nikon and Canon come out with their own mirrorless full frame cameras, then the balance will swing back to the 2.

    The problem with Nikon lately and has been in the past was, they do not listen to their customers and hopefully now, they should..
     
  6. jyc860923

    jyc860923 Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Feb 28, 2012
    Shenyang, China
    贾一川
    Just a matter of time.

    To me the one very important thing Nikon failed to do, is catching up with the live view AF, Canon has Dual Pixel AF, Sony has on-chip PDAF and SLT, even Pentax does hybrid live view AF though not really fast. Some may not be concerned with the live view AF speed with a DSLR, but to me it's one factor that sets Nikon apart from the modern world, they did it right with the 1 series mirrorless so it's not like they can't.

    The most significant difference that makes is, the Sony and the Canon and even some mirrorless can do video AF so much better and almost no Youtubers or any celebrities that I've heard, vlog with a Nikon, and when people choose their next system they want to make sure the AF appears on the LCD looks just as good as what they have been seeing all the time, it's way more than awkward to find yourself in a situation when you're trying to focus in front your family and friends like everybody does on the LCD, they've already got the shots wirelessly out of their mirrorless\Canon\Sony and up to the web (btw the Nikon bluetooth transfer sucks), it's not professional I know, it's how people take pictures now.

    Try to explain to the crowd "Sorry, the focusing on the screen is not the same with the VF, you'll have to put the dot on your kids and make sure it's tracking him/her..."
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, USA
  8. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, USA
    Have you ever used the Nikon 1 system? Nikon has all the tech in place with on-sensor phase detection and an excellent live-view implementation only 2nd to Olympus! The problem with Nikon is that they're run by a bunch of grumpy corporate types who are unwilling to listen to their customers. The only reason they lost marketshare is due to their own lack of competitiveness.
     
  9. jyc860923

    jyc860923 Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Feb 28, 2012
    Shenyang, China
    贾一川
    Exactly. They have done it, I acknowledge that. What would it be like if Panasonic and Olympus P&S all do blazing fast AF while their top models can't? Will it be a system to invest in then?
     
  10. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, USA
    Nikon does make some amazing glass though and Nikon image processing is better than Sony in my opinion with rich, but more realistic colors and better high ISO noise performance. I think there would be valid reason to invest in a Nikon large sensor mirrorless if such a camera was released. Also the new D7500 now does 4k and if it wasn't in such a boring DSLR shell, spec-wise it's a very well featured APS-C camera.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. mesmerized

    mesmerized Mu-43 Veteran

    390
    Jun 18, 2012
    Will Olympus ever jump on the FF bandwagon?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  12. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    When Nikon brings out their own full frame mirrorless which I think is totally imminent, then Nikon will be back in the #2 spot again. Despite what many people think, Nikon "DO" have the technology and expertise to make a great full frame mirrorless camera. The problem again is with management. Old school defensive thinking -- believing that by playing defensive they can continue to grow the market without bringing out any innovations or only being a follower with the now defunct Nikon DL and the so-so Nikon Key Mission action cams.
     
  13. Phocal

    Phocal Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jan 3, 2014
    No
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Turbofrog

    Turbofrog Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 21, 2014
    The big trouble for Nikon is, just 10-15% of all their sales are FF. Everything else is APS-C, and for the years 2012-2016 before they had the D500, all of those were consumer cameras, so <$1100 price point and below.

    So Nikon desperately needs a competitive consumer camera that functions the way people like to use cameras. But that isn't going to be an FF camera, because the pricing and marketing just don't make sense. So it's going to be an APS-C camera. Or, like the E-mount, they need to give it a lens mount that can accommodate both. Hopefully they do that better than Sony, since Sony's lens-mount was only designed for APS-C, and has painfully shoe-horned an FF sensor in, with lots of ramifications for lens design.

    Nikon absolutely could come out with an FF mirrorless camera. They have all the technical and engineering capabilities in place. But that's not likely to stanch the hemorrhaging of lower end DSLR sales that are simply falling off a cliff. Nikon makes very, very good FF DSLRs, and I think that many would argue that they actively prefer a D750, D810, or D5 to any Sony FF mirrorless option. The high-end isn't where they are suffering.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. jyc860923

    jyc860923 Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Feb 28, 2012
    Shenyang, China
    贾一川
    They need the management "re-accommodated" first
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  16. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, USA
    Best line of this thread! :D
     
    • Wow Wow x 1
  17. Speedliner

    Speedliner Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Mar 2, 2015
    Southern NJ, USA
    Rob
    They need to stop protecting their base and move forward. Sony didn't just become #2 in FF bodies. They went from irrelevance to #2 in just a few years. That's amazing and an accomplishment handed to them by Nikon/Canon.

    I don't have a brand loyalty to care about but I do want a healthy, evolving industry.
     
  18. bikerhiker

    bikerhiker Mu-43 All-Pro

    Dec 24, 2013
    Canada
    David
    There is a difference between vertical growth and horizontal growth. We know that the combined ILC sales has been going, average wise, down for all makers. What Sony did was stealing market share from Canon and Nikon and achieved growth that way. It might make great news today, but in the long run though, they are still not creating any new user base. If you want to see vertical growth in user base, you can see it on phones. And I mean, phones aren't cheap. Some can go on the upward of $1100 and still, you have a lot of sales happening. And for these phones, the cameras aren't anywhere close to even the best 1" sensors or the best m4/3 has to offer.

    I suspect that even if Nikon produces a great mirrorless APS camera priced below $1100, this will simply again steal market share from Nikon's DSLR line as well as existing users in an already shrinking pool of traditional cameras. Horizontal growth is not healthy without some vertical growth. The latest numbers we see predict sales of cameras to be decreasing again. What we need is a Nikon D70 miracle camera; something that bring reasons for phone users to buy it. But in order for phone users to buy a dedicated camera, it needs to embrace social media. That road has since been missed. There is only one road left and everyone including Olympus seems to play it. It is a road to higher prices. Provide the best tech at higher prices. Why not? The user base that is buying these OMD E-M1 Mk II or the A7RII are wealthy individuals. They'll buy anything new anyhow because they can afford it, whereas the rest will be content with the latest phones where you can pay it off monthly through a TAB or an easy payment plan..
     
  19. drd1135

    drd1135 Zen Snapshooter Subscribing Member

    Mar 17, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    Still, this is a market that had thus far been slow to embrace mirrorless.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1