Tony Northrup's new bogus video "Micro Four-Thirds is DEAD"

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whumber

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It is a good analogy, you keep thinking that sensors act like solar panels.
From a physical sense tiny solar panels is exactly what they are. When you view an image at anything other than 1:1 pixel view, the information from each pixel you see on screen isn't corresponding to a single pixel from the original sensor but an amalgamation of information from some area of the sensor whose size depends on the desired output magnification. If I view an image from a m43 camera and a FF camera at the same output size, each pixel I see on the screen in the FF image is coming from a sensor area 4x the size of what I'll see from the m43 image. If total light doesn't work then it's kind of a crazy coincidence that, say, an A7RII and A7SII have nearly identical high ISO performance, at least outside of the range where electronic noise starts to play a large role.
 

whumber

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If your going to compare gear then you look at the gear alone, not how one individual uses it, or does with the file once its created.

For example I know several people who negate FF's advantages by cropping the hell out of their images. All that extra "light" is useless if it ends up on the digital floor.
So, are you saying that if you effectively reduce the total amount of light used to create the image with the FF sensor by cropping then the noise advantage disappears? If so, I agree 100%.
 
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Here are my thoughts on this matter.

Tony Northrup's words, whether he intends them to be or not, have consequences. He has over 1 MLN Subscribers on youtube, which is huge number. You may point out that some popular youtubers have 2, 3, and even 5MLN subscribers and they are just silly people that do stupid human tricks. However, Northrup's channel is photography reviews, stuff that most non-photography geeks (like my wife for example) would find highly boring. So these 1MLN people that took their time to subscribe are the people that actively buy (and sometimes sell) photography equipment. Thus Tony, unlike these other youtubers that deal with silly entertaining issues, in my opinion, has responsibility to think twice and to be really careful what he says, because his words will have consequences. The most immediate consequences to m43 owners will be that your ability to resell your cameras and lenses will be reduced. There will be less people willing to buy your gear, to trade with you, because people will think twice about investing in the 'dying' system.
I agree, there are youtubers that focus on reviewing 80's computer gear and after their videos release, prices and demand for such gear goes up on the used market. Someone like Tony with so many subs can affect peoples perceptions on camera gear and take his ideas as fact and then there goes the m43 system. Not good. Obviously wont affect everyone but he could start a trend with other youtubers as all they care about is clicks and gravitate towards where there's interest whether it's ethical or not.
 

dirtdevil

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I agree, there are youtubers that focus on reviewing 80's computer gear and after their videos release, prices and demand for such gear goes up on the used market. Someone like Tony with so many subs can affect peoples perceptions on camera gear and take his ideas as fact and then there goes the m43 system. Not good. Obviously wont affect everyone but he could start a trend with other youtubers as all they care about is clicks and gravitate towards where there's interest whether it's ethical or not.
It reminds me of financial analysts that make their recommendations on stocks to buy or to sell...some have become almost popular entertainers that can have some degree of influence on your average joe and the price of a stock.
 

DanS

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If I view an image from a m43 camera and a FF camera at the same output size, each pixel I see on the screen in the FF image is coming from a sensor area 4x the size of what I'll see from the m43 image.
No, it's not that simple, The area of the sensor doesn't mean anything by its self, the number of pixels (photosites to be perfectly correct) per unit area is what matters. That's why the mp of the sensor also needs to be taken into account.
 

whumber

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No, it's not that simple, The area of the sensor doesn't mean anything by its self, the number of pixels (photosites to be perfectly correct) per unit area is what matters. That's why the mp of the sensor also needs to be taken into account.
That's not really true. Before we had gapless microlenses this was more of an issue as the effective fill factor was different but this hasn't been the case for some time. Just compare the A7RII and A7SII, in stills the high ISO performance is almost identical; the only differences show up in areas that are dominated by electronic noise rather than photon shot noise.
 

Mack

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Was just reading this old article from 2017 where Olympus said it is possible for 33MP 8K video in MFT: http://thenewcamera.com/glimpse-of-future-olympus-mirrorless-with-33mp-sensor-and-8k-video/

Quoting Olympus: “We can assure you that there is no problem in developing sensors at 33 million pixels for filming in 8K. We started the 4/3″ saga with a sensor at 5 Mpx In 2003. Now the same sensor is at 20 Mpx with a much higher image quality especially for the management of electronic noise.”

Samsung seems to be working towards 8K televisions already and I wouldn't be surprised if their sensor foundry could make the MFT sensor given they are already making a 48MP stabilized sensor themselves that might reside in the upcoming Samsung S10 to compete against the Huawei P20 Pro 40MP cellphone.

If Olympus pulls 8K off, it could really press in the Nikon Z6 and Canon R sales arena. Might see Tony and Thom Hogan both eating crow. :laugh1:
 

Telonson

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If Olympus pulls 8K off,
Little doubt they could pull it off. RED does it, but the RED is a big metal box with loud fans that keeps a user's hands warm on the coldest of nights.

The issue is that few would actually want those 8K files. They'd want the camera to output usable 4K or 1080 video. Modern computers with the fastest CPUs, lots of RAM, and the most expensive video cards can have a difficult time editing 4K. Most tend to use proxies. 8K is 4 times more data, and would overwhelm editing machines even further.

An 8K sensor down sampled to 4K would greatly reduce noise and increase color fidelity, but in-camera down sampling tends to create a lot of heat. There are a lot of bad solutions to the problem. The most typical is to crop the sensor to a 1:1 size, which in the case of 4K from an 8K sensor, would only use the central 25% of an M43 sensor. Other bad solutions are to throw away most of the pixels or lines, without ever bothering to read them.

A full sensor readout 8K, in-camera down-sample to 4K would be an amazing feat within a M43 body. It might be possible. Chips are getting faster and better all the time. Gallium nitride semi-conductors are often able do similar jobs while creating much less heat. If Olympus could deliver a full sensor readout 8K to 4K that included the video features common to the GH5 and BlackMagic cameras, like high bit depth RAW, it would make large waves in the video market.

Even Tony Northrup would buy one.
 

Ross the fiddler

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Maybe Tony is trying to get more clicks - more money. In the photo industry social media sector, what you say (fact or fiction) can make you $$$ and he might be looking to expand his bank account.
Maybe Tony should be challenged legally for spreading misleading information to the detriment of Olympus business prospects.
 

bikerhiker

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I also thought MP was number 1. Oh well. You are the insider.

In any case, I will give you a short story that I personally experienced, not a hypothetical one.

One of my photographer friend asked me to go to do night photography with him on August 11 2016. I had never done it, but I sure love pressing the shutter, so I gladly said yes. Went to Trillium Lake. We both setup ahead of time. He used his Nikon D610 FF setup, I used my em1 and 12-40. I knew I had live composite, so this was a perfect opportunity for me to test it out.

We both took pictures for about 45 minutes each time. Right as we had started, we were joined by another photographer with his D810 and what ever zoom he had on. Standing right next to each other, it was very interesting for me to see the 3 of us. I pressed the shutter to activate the exposer and that was it. I just hung out and chit chatted with some other people who were there to see the meteor shower. My good friend and the other person with the D810 kept busy, constantly checking their camera.

I was very happy that I had an Olympus camera. This technology offered in the EM1 made my life so much easier that night I’ll never forget it. Even if my results were going to be inferior to my friend’s, I was still happy. Although, to be honest, I had no idea what the results were going to be. Me doing this type of photography for the first time, I knew there was a good chance that the photos would be deleted at home. Anyway, here are the results of my ‘’efforts’’(hardly) and my friends after he merged hundreds of shots in PS.

My photo is the first one. His is the second photo.

View attachment 692027
So the end story was they dumped their Nikons and bought Olympus? :confused-53:
 

paul macro

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To be honest, I don't disagree with Tony. In fact, I've said the same thing: I believe that Panasonic will not "abandon" m43. They will release a new camera body and lens every now and then, but the majority of their efforts, and thus announcements & releases, will be for the L mount.

M43 is very mature and saturated, and it's tough to continue to grow in that type of market. So Panasonic decided to venture off in to a new, untapped (for them) market. From a business sense, it makes perfect sense (at least as far as "perfect sense" goes when investing in a business whose market share is continuing to shrink year after year).

Do I think Panasonic will abandon m43? No, but I believe their involvement will be seriously scaled back. So I don't think Tony is "wrong", but his use of click-baity titles conveys a slightly different message than what he's actually saying.
Maybe but remember those panasonic cameras were dead just mock ups even the touted 10-25 f1.7 for m43 was just a mock up not the forst time panasonic have pulled the rug from under are feet ,proof and pudding needed
 

bikerhiker

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Glad you bring that up. My friend recently dumped his Nikon gear and bought a fuji xt2 a 3 lenses.

He is 27 years old. FF isn’t the be all end all. There is more to camera systems than specs.
Thank you for sharing your story.
 

whumber

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Can someone explain to me how Olympus sensor shift's function can improve the dynamic range (dr) of your final stitched picture? My logic is that if a single image has a dr of let's say 10, how can stitching 8 pictures with a dr of 10 suddenly create a final product with a dr of 12 ?
It's because the read noise is, mostly, random and gets reduced through a form of ensemble averaging. You can get the same effect by stitching 8 pictures and downsampling to the original resolution. Relevant to this discussion, combining multiple exposures is just another way of increase the total amount of light that's going into forming the image, just like using a large sensor.
 

DanS

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Modern computers with the fastest CPUs, lots of RAM, and the most expensive video cards can have a difficult time editing 4K. Most tend to use proxies. 8K is 4 times more data, and would overwhelm editing machines even further.
This is completely false. My current machine (built in 2016 for less than $2k) has a 6850k, gtx 1070, and 32gb of ram. I run the studio version of Resolve, and I can edit and color grade gh5 4k and 6k footage in real time with no need for proxies or a down sampled timeline. The only thing I can't do in real time is NR. To be clear most pros can't even do NR in real time.

By the time 8k makes it to the consumer market a properly built machine will be able to handle it.
 

Telonson

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This is completely false.
Your system can edit and scrub 4K and 6K H264 or H265 in real time?

It's certainly possible using intermediate codecs like ProRes or DNX, but not aware of any Panasonic or Olympus cameras able to directly record intermediate codecs. Which means lengthy transcoding. Some prefer to transcode, other to use proxies. Either process requires a time consuming ingest.
 
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I agree that this perception about the demise of µ4/3 is heavily rooted in an unjustifiably negative bias that underrates the system. Unfortunately it has the power to be a self-fulfilling prophecy - especially with the lack of marketing to influence the narrative. I'm not going to lie... it disheartens me. Even though I am happy with the gear I have, I can't help but want to feel confident that the system has a future.

A number of µ4/3 users have been unhappy with the pace and direction Olympus in particular has been going. Olympus has slowed down production and further differentiated the OM-D tiers, stating they would focus more on firmware updates to keep the cameras relevant longer. They've also focused on high-end development. This strategy could save development costs, and longer innovation periods could increase the significance of new models. It creates more room for previous-generation sales to be viable at lower prices, and allows high-end innovation to trickle down to lower tiers. But there have been a few problems.
  1. Whether you like the Pro, Premium or Consumer tiers - 2018 was too quiet, and the silence has made people impatient. Another firmware upgrade or official, concrete announcement (perhaps the next few year's roadmap) would have helped generate positive excitement, rather than these useless and vague rumors. There aren't many holes left the lens lineup, but lens production must continue for the system to remain healthy.
  2. The µ4/3 community has always been insecure between larger formats and cell phones, driving Olympus to improve performance and IQ. This means more high-end gear, which has caught them in a catch 22 accusation of chasing full frame, and the unfair size and price comparisons of high-end µ4/3 vs. entry level full frame that keep cropping up no matter how often the fallacy is pointed out. Oly's only way out is to realize the potential benefits of their strategy (assuming I am correct about it). Obviously, they need the E-MX to be a hit. I think some of the speculation about it in the past year or so have demanded an irrational level of expectation the camera has no way of living up to. It's as if some people think it must have E-M1 Mk II performance, full frame IQ, and yet also be cheaper. The format doesn't need a miracle to survive, but the new model at least needs a competitive response to the latest challenges from other brands.
  3. Many who want smaller and/or cheaper gear have lamented Oly's Pro tier focus. While I think the focus does need to start with the Pro tier, it can't end there. Olympus needs to announce an E-M5 MK III with a lot of E-M1 Mk II tech (at least PDAF, 4K video, and the 20mp sensor and latest processor). The E-M1 MkII dropping in price will help, but not for those who want a smaller form factor. Furthermore, firmware updates need to be for all tiers, not just the Pro tier.
 
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