Thread Closed?

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by DekHog, Aug 19, 2011.

  1. DekHog

    DekHog Mu-43 Top Veteran

    579
    May 3, 2011
    Scotland
    I can see in the rules why this thread was closed, but would have to ask why, on a photography forum, we can't discuss photographers rights?

    Isn't that subject very much a part of photography these days and what we should be talking about? Many people can't take photographs on the streets in peace and then also can't discuss it in here.....

    The OP was seriously upset about it, and he can't come in here and mention it, so if he wants to talk about it's a case of 'Go somewhere else, Son, you're not welcome in here with your photographers rights...' Why? :confused:

    Classing it as politics is just an utter cop out....


    Rules

    5. Discussion of politics and religion is not allowed anywhere on the site. This includes discussion of photography-related politics such as photographers' rights.
     
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  2. thearne3

    thearne3 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    807
    Jan 28, 2010
    Redding, CT USA
    Hi DekHog,

    I just did a search of the forum, and looked through the FAQ - couldn't even find the Rules! Don't feel qualified to contribute to the issue you've raised w/o seeing the bigger picture. Would you please direct me?
     
  3. ripleys baby

    ripleys baby Straw clutcher

    609
    Aug 10, 2011
    Me too

    I also read the rules also. And sure enough photographers rights
    NOT ALLOWED !
    Would an explanation be possible from admin or mod, as to why this is so ?

    Thank you very much :thumbup:
     
  4. Alanroseman

    Alanroseman Super Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 21, 2010
    New England
    Hi Folks,

    Here are the TOS for the site as written: Please see number 5 for the reason the thread was removed.

    Site-wide rules and terms of service for Mu-43.com - Micro Four Thirds User Group
    1. No personal attacks or insults allowed.
    2. Be nice. Rude comments have no place here.
    3. Don't use the forums for illegal activity. This includes but is not limited to posting links to or trading pirated photography-related applications.
    4. No obscene, hateful, threatening, racist, sexist, or otherwise discriminatory posts or signatures. Nudity and profanity are also off limits.
    5. Discussion of politics and religion is not allowed anywhere on the site. This includes discussion of photography-related politics such as photographers' rights.
    6. All transactions in the Marketplace should be photography related.
    7. Commercial listings (camera dealers, workshop offerings, etc) should be posted in the Outside Auctions and Commercial Listings forum.
    8. Don't spam the forums. Some self-promotion is okay if it follows the guidelines below.
    9. It is against our site rules to modify and repost a version of anyone else's image without explicit permission to do so.
    10. The moderators at Mu-43 may remove, edit, move or close any thread, post, or posted image.
    11. If you object to a moderator action, please PM an admin rather than posting in the open forum about it.
     
  5. Djarum

    Djarum Super Moderator

    Dec 15, 2009
    Huntsville, AL, USA
    Jason
    I know that early on there was some discussion at great detail with Amin, StreetShooter and previous moderators, and early forum members including myself about politics and photographers rights. (I looked for the original thread, but I could not find it). While photographer's rights is a photographic discussion, it is also a political discussion, and I don't think the two can be seperated.

    My personal view is that political discussions usually end up dividing people instead bringing people together over a common hobby. I think that the spirit of this forum is about bringing people together over photography and the :43: format, and not to divide people over political issues. I personally agree with the decisions of the moderators and the rules of the forum. There are a wealth of other places that politics and photography can be discussed.

    Ultimately we have to abide by the rules set forth whether we like them or not.
     
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  6. carpandean

    carpandean Mu-43 Top Veteran

    827
    Oct 29, 2010
    Western NY
    I remember a big thread on this when I first started. Seems to me that we "decided" (what power do posters really have) that it was OK to state what your rights are (or at least, where they can be looked up) and relay instances where those rights have been checked, but not to have a political discussion of what they should be. In other words, it's fine to say that you have the right to take pictures in ____ situations and the authorities have the right to check your photos under law if ____, and to tell a story about how you were approached by authorities, but not to say "damn big brother watching everything we do; they shouldn't have any right to look at my pictures; I blame the _____s!" The politics of what rights you or authorities should or should not have is off limits.

    Edit: added link.
     
  7. Pan Korop

    Pan Korop Mu-43 Veteran

    479
    Mar 31, 2011
    Phare Ouest
    i.e. we can discuss any thing but our rights here.
    Rights are politics, true enough. But what isn't, btw ?
    Does it extend to one or the other complaining about O or P, or some vendor's warranty policy ? :rolleyes:

    Funny. I wanted to ad to the closed thread that "yes, I had experienced the same thing as in *heffield, but it was in U**R." (*)
    Good thing the Thought Police prevented me...

    (*) Part of this post self-censored to keep on the safe side, just in case quoting a living city or a defunct country would be deemed too political. :wink:
     
  8. thearne3

    thearne3 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    807
    Jan 28, 2010
    Redding, CT USA
    This is a worthwhile distinction. Is that the position of Mods? I can see how this would be hard to enforce. You'd pretty much need a reminder in every thread that sited an incident - few people would be aware of the distinction...
     
  9. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    As someone who does a lot of volunteer work, I can sympathize with the moderators. They would have to really read and think about closely such threads, and take up a lot of their time. I'm not sure if that's their reason, but that would be one of mine, if I were in their shoes!!
     
  10. ripleys baby

    ripleys baby Straw clutcher

    609
    Aug 10, 2011
    Becoming

    This thread should be closed. It's becoming far to political :biggrin:
     
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  11. DekHog

    DekHog Mu-43 Top Veteran

    579
    May 3, 2011
    Scotland
    I'm not being awkward, it's just that I can't see why people can't discuss all aspects of photography on a photography forum, that's all....... seems very restrictive and narrow-minded to me. It's not like the mods are overworked in here after all, as it's a pretty easy going place to be..... if people were talking genuine politics or religion, I'd get it.
     
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  12. Alanroseman

    Alanroseman Super Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 21, 2010
    New England
    Hi Guys & Gals,

    It isn't about our position. I'm a very political animal, have been for many years..

    It's about the Terms of Service - TOS and rule number 5 which is about as specific as it can possibly be.

    That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Discussion regarding a change in the TOS may ensue. If so, okay.

    Our primary job as mods is to enforce the TOS as best as possible I missed the thread, and came to this discussion a little late I'm afraid. That said, rule number 5, is rule number 5.

    Cheers, Alan
     
  13. DekHog

    DekHog Mu-43 Top Veteran

    579
    May 3, 2011
    Scotland
    Alan, it's pretty pointless pointing to the rules over and over again; that's what the question was about, not asking what the rules were, but asking why..... I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know the reason why.

    Who'd be a Mod, eh? :)
     
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  14. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Super Moderator

    Apr 17, 2010
    Near Philadephila
    My memory is similar to Jason's. There was a lengthy thread on photographers rights many months ago, maybe almost a year ago (??) and it devolved very quickly into a fairly bitter set of disagreements about what photographer's rights SHOULD be and SHOULD NOT be, with lots of strong political overtones. And based on how thoroughly that thread went downhill, I think the mods made the decision that photographer's rights, as pertinent as they might be, were almost unavoidably political, or would turn political, and decided the best way to deal with that was just not to allow them except very narrowly, as noted above (ie, what you CAN do and CAN'T do in a given location - not what you SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be able to do).

    That's my memory of WHY, which may not be totally accurate.

    -Ray
     
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  15. Alanroseman

    Alanroseman Super Moderator Emeritus

    Dec 21, 2010
    New England

    Hi DekHog,

    I think your quote best answers your question of "why".

    This is a really easy going place to hang out. There are so many places to go on the net and "have at it' about politics, laws, censorship what have you.

    Here, we stick to the photography and ยต43 gear etc. I wasn't around for the birth of the TOS, but I think you answered your own question of "why" pretty well.

    "If people were talking about religion or politics." Exactly. So, we don't.

    As far as "why" it was closed, the rule is the answer..

    Cheers, Alan
     
  16. ripleys baby

    ripleys baby Straw clutcher

    609
    Aug 10, 2011
    Well thats a good enough reason for me then . I was not around during the first hostilities, so i cant comment. But i fail to see how photographers could fall out with each other over an issue that involves all photographers. But then again We are not all the same are we.
    Your explanation Ray, Is good enough for me.
    I wont mention it again . I still think its a valid topic, if only because this site has threads to do with street photography and candids. Pretty sure this subject will come up again.
    Why not just have an area where people can post links to photographers rights issues for reference ,
    for example. If i was to holiday overseas. I would like to think i could look up that countries stance on photography. Even better if i could ask a forum member living in the place i was going to visit about this subject, Or would that thread get blocked/stopped/deleted ?
     
  17. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Super Moderator

    Apr 17, 2010
    Near Philadephila
    I think it got heated over cultural differences, some European vs American, some East vs West - I don't recall directly. But some folks understood why there should be limitations on photographers rights and even supported those limitations and some folks did NOT and found it to be an issue worth fighting over. If all photographers were the same, but, as you note, we're no more the same than any other sub-group of people. Again, my memory could be hazy on this, but that's what I recall. I don't think I got into it (or I'd probably remember it better), but I remember reading parts of it.

    -Ray
     
  18. DekHog

    DekHog Mu-43 Top Veteran

    579
    May 3, 2011
    Scotland
    My point is that it's something that potentially affects every single one of us every time we step over our own front door with a camera.

    Forums are/should be about people having differing opinions, or they essentially wouldn't exist.....
     
  19. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs Super Moderator

    Apr 17, 2010
    Near Philadephila
    Well, there you go - that's an opinion...

    I've been on any number of forums and I saw one of my favorite bicycle related forums nearly brought to its knees by political discussions until they were finally banned. And a lot of them started directly around bicycle advocacy issues, which is pretty analogous to this question on this forum. In that case, the mods allow bike advocacy discussions to go UNTIL they start going into the red and then shut them down. But that results in A) more work for the mods to have to follow those threads and make a judgement call, and B) even MORE animus towards the mods because folks get pissed each time they shut down a specific thread, rather than in this situation, where its just a question of being pissed at them once for putting the rule in place. I'm OK with it either way, but I wouldn't wish that duty on a mod, so I don't blame 'em for just not allowing the discussions to get started.

    -Ray
     
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  20. DekHog

    DekHog Mu-43 Top Veteran

    579
    May 3, 2011
    Scotland
    Thanks, Ray - fair points, and I do understand where yourself and Alan are coming from, but I just felt a bit sorry for the OP who was genuinely upset at what had occurred and was asking people about it, then...... thread closed.

    Not a great way to finish off what was already a very bad day for him.....
     
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