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The GM1 could be smaller....

Discussion in 'Panasonic Cameras' started by gsk3, Nov 15, 2013.

  1. gsk3

    gsk3 Mu-43 Regular

    124
    Jan 29, 2012
    See the sensor plane mark on the GM1? It looks like there's plenty of room behind it as electronics get smaller:

    GM1crop.

    "But you can't make electronics just disappear!" you object. Fine, they can go in front where the lens mount bump-out is:

    GM1crop2.
     
  2. wjiang

    wjiang Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I'm so confused by this...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Cruzan80

    Cruzan80 Mu-43 All-Pro

    Aug 23, 2012
    Denver, Co
    Sean Rastsmith
    I am still wondering why the edges don't match up in the first picture.
     
  4. greenarcher02

    greenarcher02 Mu-43 Veteran

    330
    Feb 13, 2012
    Manila, Philippines
    He just cut it for visualization. And I think that place is for the screen, you can't just move electronics around. And assuming that's possible, I don't think it's good for the sensor to have it so close to the screen. You basically have the sensor plane attached to the back of the screen, which could pose problems.
     
  5. Reflector

    Reflector Mu-43 Veteran

    406
    Aug 31, 2013
    I think what gsk3 is implying with his design is that he'd basically have the area of the camera immediately behind the sensor be basically "empty" and with only the sensor. All the camera circuitry would be then stuffed "around" and "besides"the lens mount to save on physical space that is "wasted" by the lensmount protrusion.

    A clever idea, something I have brought up for a true digital FM with mezzanined circuit boards in the film handling area instead of the chunky Df that Nikon made, but where will you put the relatively "thick" LCD? The sensor occupies that space immediately rear of the camera now.
     
  6. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    This is always the case when comparing fixed lens designs versus ones that need to implement an interchangeable lens mount. In other words, don't assume the flange distance of the RX100 in comparison is at the same plane as that of the film flange marking on the GM1. Also, for most cameras, the largest consumer of space is often the battery... Flattening and pushing things out may have adverse effects on ergonomics.

    If you remove some of the features/functions from the camera, you'd probably end up with something like the Sony QX series.... Which may be an interesting direction that interests you.
     
  7. gochugogi

    gochugogi Mu-43 Veteran

    Someday they'll figure how to make it smaller but it will still need to have a fairly thick hand grip A really thin camera would cause hand cramps and butterfingers with even moderate sized lenses.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. tjdean01

    tjdean01 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    842
    Feb 20, 2013
    What is that grip on the GM1?
     
  9. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Its an add on grip that mimics the one Leica produces for their M8 and M9.
     
  10. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Only problem is the rear LCD! You can't have the sensor pushed all the way to the rear of the body and then put a screen on the back. It might be possible to make it a bit thinner but not as much as you show and still have an LCD. Of coarse if it had a VF on top then you could do away with a rear screen altogether.

    For those confused by the OP's pics here is the unaltered image.
    ?ACT=44&fid=17&d=2610&f=z-panasonic-gm1_vsrx100ii-600px__largest-no-more-than-580x630.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. biomed

    biomed Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 22, 2013
    Seattle area
    Mike
    The GM1 uses the same sensor and electronics as the GX7 - that is probably is the main reason it is not any smaller.
     
  12. greenarcher02

    greenarcher02 Mu-43 Veteran

    330
    Feb 13, 2012
    Manila, Philippines
    I wish some engineer would be willing to tear apart and *try* to shuffle the GM1's electronics inside to really see if it can get smaller, and if it's possible to put the LCD part elsewhere. You can't just cut an image up to the sensor plane like that.
     
  13. Ulfric M Douglas

    Ulfric M Douglas Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 6, 2010
    Northumberland
    Thanks Speed
    I was certainly confused at why the first image had only half a camera, plus a silly 'grip' stuck onto it.
    Surely beginning the discussion with a 'vanilla' GM1 would've been more useful,
    and why is the Sony there too?
     
  14. gsk3

    gsk3 Mu-43 Regular

    124
    Jan 29, 2012
    Haha clearly my post-and-run left more questions than answers. In some sense it was intended to, but maybe a bit too obscure. :)

    This is exactly what I meant.

    I assumed the sensor on the GM1 was where the sensor mark is on the GM1. The Sony is there only for a size comparison.

    My point was to illustrate what future tech might look like. This is really the physical limits of the format, since everything else can eventually be made smaller except the optical path. They could also do something like move the lens assembly to the extreme edge of the camera and have a smaller LCD, so they don't overlap:

    LCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDBLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK
    LCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDBLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK
    LCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDBLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK
    LCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDBLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK
    LCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDBLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK
    LCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDBLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK
    LCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDLCDBLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK

    That could go in the grip. I'd rather have things stick out front than out back--as long as they don't protrude past the lens cap they don't add to the total depth.
     
  15. greenarcher02

    greenarcher02 Mu-43 Veteran

    330
    Feb 13, 2012
    Manila, Philippines
    That's an official grip for the GM1
     
  16. dhazeghi

    dhazeghi Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 6, 2010
    San Jose, CA
    Dara
    Doesn't look smaller so much as thinner. The GM1 is already quite fiddly - I think they're probably need to rethink the controls if they did what you proposed. If they want to make the camera pocketable like the RX100 though, it really is going to come down to the lenses. I do think there's a market for a fixed lens compact using a m4/3 sensor, with a retracting lens mechanism.
     
  17. Ulfric M Douglas

    Ulfric M Douglas Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 6, 2010
    Northumberland
    The sensor 'line' surely indicates the front edge of the sensor = where the light hits it,
    meaning the back of the camera can never be at that line since the sensor itself would be outside the camera body ... right?
     
  18. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I am with dhazeghi, the only way to really make a smaller m4/3 camera is to get smaller lenses. With an interchangeable mount the lenses have some serious limits to making it small. With the lens designed and built into the body those limits can be overcome.

    The grip that is on the GM is the factory grip - ugly and odd!

    The image plane line is where the sensor reads the image. There is some material in front of that point as there are tiny lenses for each pixel cell as well as AA filter and protective layers over that. However the image plane of a sensor would be no more than a millimeter behind the front surface. There would be another millimeter or two on the rear side of the sensor. On top of all that, or perhaps I should say around is the mount and connectors which would make the unit a bit thicker. Then if you add a self-cleaning feature{needed for an interchangeable lens body} it will get thicker. And if you add on-sensor stabilizer it will get even thicker and larger around.

    With this all said I think Panasonic pushed the technology to it's limits with the GM, making it about as small as they could. I personally don't care for tiny cameras and have no interest in getting this one but I know others do.
     
  19. drd1135

    drd1135 Zen Snapshooter

    Mar 17, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    They should make it much thinner and then sell a bigger grip. :rolleyes:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Mellow

    Mellow Mu-43 All-Pro

    Aug 27, 2010
    Florida or Idaho
    Tom
    I really like the NEX form factor, where the grip is large and an integral part of the camera--not an add-on. In fact, that's where the battery and memory card are stored. It seems silly to attach a piece metal or plastic to serve as a grip when it's still too small and still doesn't become the limiting factor in the width of the camera (that's the lens).