The Camera Store posted a great AF Comparison video between the X-T1, E-M1, A6000, GH4, and D4S

taz98spin

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2011
Messages
843
Location
NYC
While I'm inclined to agree with you and my next camera purchase will probably be an E-M1, from what I think I know, the GH4 has some advantages in the flexibility of its AF system that I can see being very useful for an action shooter, and I cant help but always be impressed at how panasonic managed to improve performance so drastically, to arguably the best among mirrorless cameras, while only using CDAF. I shot a wedding today, side by side with an X-T1 and my E-M5 (not really action, but there was a lot of dancing =P), and being able to use the touch screen to set my AF point while looking through the EVF and set custom AF points were both incredibly useful. The former was kind of like manual focus tracking. That said, Olympus' face detection is still the very best out there. Panny's is still good, though.

The X-T1 plus 56mm F1.2 was a bit of a frustrating experience with false positives and slow focus. I ended up reverting to manual focus or just using the 45mm f1.8 on the GH4 or E-M5 most of the time. Shame, because the 56mm is a beautiful lens.
Sorry to hear that you had such difficulties with the X-T1 & the 56/1.2 combo! :frown:

But, I'm kinda shocked that you would even attempt to shoot a wedding with the X-T1 if you were already having (knowing) these difficulties going in? (Referring to the GH4 review thread that you wrote and the poor X-T1 tracking you mentioned) :confused:

Testing out a camera is one thing, missing a client's "most" important moments are another thing..
 

napilopez

Contributing Editor
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
826
Location
NYC Area
Real Name
Napier Lopez
I keep hearing this, and it's too bad, because it seems like a lovely lens otherwise. The non-optical components of Fuji lens performance are what holds me back from buying into the system I think (that, and some reports of poor quality control).

And yes, some of your points are things I failed to consider. The battery life advantage of the GH4 really can't be overlooked - it's nice to know you've got enough juice to cover extra-long walks, or nights out when you forget a spare. Carrying a spare is a trivial thing (especially if you're carrying a bag with extra lenses/accessories), but some days I just like to take off with my GH4 and a prime and not worry about the gear. It's nice to know you've got some cushion with your battery.

I think my overall view on it is that while there's nothing the E-M1 really does better than the GH4 (save IBIS, which I don't find practically all that useful anyway), the advantages of the GH4 aren't worth an extra $400-$500 for a stills-only shooter. If you've got the money, buy the GH4, but if you've got budget constraints - say, if you've only got $2000 to spend - I'd prefer the E-M1 and a couple Oly primes over the GH4 and one of the (still very nice) $200 Sigma A lenses.
Agreed for the most part, although for me IBIS is what makes all the difference. I spend too much time shooting in ISO 6400 situations for my day-today stuff=P

Sorry to hear that you had such difficulties with the X-T1 & the 56/1.2 combo! :frown:

But, I'm kinda shocked that you would even attempt to shoot a wedding with the X-T1 if you were already having (knowing) these difficulties going in? (Referring to the GH4 review thread that you wrote and the poor X-T1 tracking you mentioned) :confused:

Testing out a camera is one thing, missing a client's "most" important moments are another thing..
Woah, you misunderstand me--I never said I missed shots! I had 3 cameras at my waist (by the way, another testament to mirrorless cameras, carrying 3 bodies and 5 lenses all day with no issue) and the X-T1 was almost exclusively used for non-essential or posed shots; there's a reason I shot twice as many frames with the GH4 =P If I'd have had things my way, all the shots I took with the 45mm F1.8 would have happened with the Fuji instead because it's simply the better lens, but unfortunately I didn't trust the combo enough for that. Mind you, my favorite "wedding lens" is the Voigtlander 42.5mm F1.8, and that's entirely manual focus, but no fly-by-wire mechanism has made me comfortable enough to do that for an entire wedding.

I should clarify: X-T1 + 56mm combo delivers beautiful images, and I used it plenty for shots where I had time to position and guide people. The problem was when I tried to use AF to take these shots, it misfocused more often than I would have liked, so I had to revert to MF.

And another point I should clarify: I don't mean at all to say that you can't shoot a wedding with the X-T1 + 56mm. You most definitely can. It's just being an M4/3 user, I'm used to quicker and more accurate focusing than I felt that combo provided (results were much more pleasant using the 18-55mm, in the X-T1's defense). Had I shot it just with the X-T1, I would still be happy with my results, just my M4/3 combos were better. So it was frustrating, but mainly from a relative perspective. Kind of like using an EF 85mm F1.8 vs the 85L F1.2, the latter makes nicer images but the former is more reliable. The 56mm was definitely worth using, but I also feel it could be better

At the end of the day I'm still being kind of nitpicky--I wouldn't have an issue with a lot of these things with the X-T1 if I weren't testing it at the same time as the GH4
 

taz98spin

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2011
Messages
843
Location
NYC
Woah, you misunderstand me--I never said I missed shots! I had 3 cameras at my waist (by the way, another testament to mirrorless cameras, carrying 3 bodies and 5 lenses all day with no issue) and the X-T1 was almost exclusively used for non-essential or posed shots; there's a reason I shot twice as many frames with the GH4 =P If I'd have had things my way, all the shots I took with the 45mm F1.8 would have happened with the Fuji instead because it's simply the better lens, but unfortunately I didn't trust the combo enough for that. Mind you, my favorite "wedding lens" is the Voigtlander 42.5mm F1.8, and that's entirely manual focus, but no fly-by-wire mechanism has made me comfortable enough to do that for an entire wedding.

I should clarify: X-T1 + 56mm combo delivers beautiful images, and I used it plenty for shots where I had time to position and guide people. The problem was when I tried to use AF to take these shots, it misfocused more often than I would have liked, so I had to revert to MF.

And another point I should clarify: I don't mean at all to say that you can't shoot a wedding with the X-T1 + 56mm. You most definitely can. It's just being an M4/3 user, I'm used to quicker and more accurate focusing than I felt that combo provided (results were much more pleasant using the 18-55mm, in the X-T1's defense). Had I shot it just with the X-T1, I would still be happy with my results, just my M4/3 combos were better. So it was frustrating, but mainly from a relative perspective. Kind of like using an EF 85mm F1.8 vs the 85L F1.2, the latter makes nicer images but the former is more reliable. The 56mm was definitely worth using, but I also feel it could be better

At the end of the day I'm still being kind of nitpicky--I wouldn't have an issue with a lot of these things with the X-T1 if I weren't testing it at the same time as the GH4
Oh I thought you only had the E-M5 & the X-T1, didn't know you had the GH4 with you as well.

Glad you clarified about that you can shoot with the X-T1.
I've shot 3 weddings with the much slower X-PRO1, so I was surprised with your posting about being frustrated with the X-T1 + 56/1.2 combo.
But yes, if you're used to the top speed focusing of the GH4, I can see why you would get frustrated.

Still surprised you got false possitive shots though? Can you post an example?
I haven't shot any weddings with the X-T1 yet, but I have 2 set for this summer, so I would like to know which situation (s) gave you the false positive shots.
 

napilopez

Contributing Editor
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
826
Location
NYC Area
Real Name
Napier Lopez
Oh I thought you only had the E-M5 & the X-T1, didn't know you had the GH4 with you as well.

Glad you clarified about that you can shoot with the X-T1.
I've shot 3 weddings with the much slower X-PRO1, so I was surprised with your posting about being frustrated with the X-T1 + 56/1.2 combo.
But yes, if you're used to the top speed focusing of the GH4, I can see why you would get frustrated.

Still surprised you got false possitive shots though? Can you post an example?
I haven't shot any weddings with the X-T1 yet, but I have 2 set for this summer, so I would like to know which situation (s) gave you the false positive shots.
At the end of the day you can shoot with any camera ;)

But yes, my frustration was relative. I think I may have also been a little annoyed because the Nocticron 43mm F1.2 I recently tested works much faster, and I guess I was seeing the Fuji 56mm as the X-Mount version of that. I wish I could have tested the X-T1 with other fast X-Mount primes I'd had more experience with previously; the 23mm F1.4 is one of my favorite lenses ever. But the X-T1 is still very fast with the 18-55; unfortunately I didn't need to use that lens nearly as much.

By false positives I mean times the camera thought it was in focus but wasn't, although I should have rather said that my main issue was more just the times the lens didn't focus at all. It's a significant problem for acquiring initial focus when using C-AF(even though once it acquires initial focus, it works rather splendidly for the other frames in the burst), but a bit annoying in S-AF too. And it's not that this happened that often, but it was enough to make me a bit hesitant. Keep in mind that I tend to shoot my candids at a very quick pace, rapidly jumping from subject to subjet. Very run and gun. Someone with a different shooting style may not be as bothered.

To answer your question, this seemed to happen most at very close distances, or when the background and your subject aren't the most contrasty (an issue for any lens, but notable here).

But yeah, that seems to be more of an issue with the 56mm than anything else, since I didn't feel the 23mm F1.4 ever gave me significant trouble on the slower X-E2. I'm not ultimately judging the X-T1's performance based on that lens alone.
 

yakky

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
661
Having used a number of Canon DSLRs over the years, I think this is a good point. Sure, a 1D mk IV will be much better at action AF performance than CAF on u43, but the same will not be true of a Rebel/xxxD camera at all. Even the xxD range have limitations. I'm not saying that u43 cameras don't have some way to go before they can be considered good sport//BIF cameras, just that DSLRs are only significantly better once you're very high in the model range.
Perhaps that's the case with Canon, but my $120 D3000 destroys my EM5 in C-AF performance. The D3000 has just under a 96% hit rate while the EM5 is in the mid to lower 80 range.

Great review though, exactly what I suspected about the Fuji. I almost bought it when it came out but I'd remembered all the propaganda about fast AF with the X-E1. Once bitten....
 

b_rubenstein

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
1,447
Location
Melbourne, FL
Yes, the µ4/3 lens was the 35-100/2.8, the 1.4 firmware seems to help the precision of the E-M1 AF, but here's the thing motor sports is generally has deterministic motion. I've been shooting it since the late 70's and it's not that demanding on AF. Shoot things like football (American or the one in the rest of the world), birds in flight or other non-deterministic high speed motion and the hit rate drops off with mirrorless.
 

John M Flores

Super Moderator
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
2,988
Location
NJ
Yes, the µ4/3 lens was the 35-100/2.8, the 1.4 firmware seems to help the precision of the E-M1 AF, but here's the thing motor sports is generally has deterministic motion. I've been shooting it since the late 70's and it's not that demanding on AF. Shoot things like football (American or the one in the rest of the world), birds in flight or other non-deterministic high speed motion and the hit rate drops off with mirrorless.
So true. I wish this had tested lest predictable movements.
 

kenyee

Mu-43 Rookie
Joined
Oct 13, 2013
Messages
13
Didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but doesn't the deeper DOF of m4/3 make it easier than APS-C sensors to do C-AF w/ a "fast" long lens? I.e. an f/2.8 m4/3 lens has 2x the DOF of an equivalent APS-C lens?
 

gotak

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
185
Location
Toronto
Has anyone actually tested the GH4 with say a kid on a swing? I have been testing the e-m1 in C-AF with tracking using my baby on park swing
and her no longer used baby swing at home in dim condtions and I find that while the camera can track it fails flat when the swing changes direction (as swings tends to do.. lol).

So basically once it gets focus it will track the swing coming or going but it'll lose focus during the switch in direction and take a second or so to get it again. Not sure what the cause is but I am curious if DSRLs with full cross type AF and the GH4 does any better in these situations.

Next I am going to try to see if the e-m1 works in sports situation at Karate. Previously I have found that the supposedly strong AF on the 7D work well enough but was liable to miss quite often when the action gets fast.
 

gugarci

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
304
Location
Lyndhurst, NJ
Real Name
Bill
I saw that video yesterday. I just wish the GH4 contrast detect CAF AF would work with non Panasonic lenses. The E-M1's phase detection does. Regardless it's great to see how far mirrorless cameras have come.
 

jjbigfly

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
88
Pardon the interruption.....But if the video would have used the camera that I have and my favorite lens and would have been shot on Thursday after 6:00 pm facing into the sunset at 74 degrees temperature.....and, well I bet you get my point.
I thought it was a very well done comparison in a real life situation. If I shot only still life, or perhaps macro, but, wait! The video was not about that, was it? It was a VERY interesting REAL LIFE comparison any way you look at it. Out of camera pictures compared by your own eyes in one selected situation.
 

John M Flores

Super Moderator
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
2,988
Location
NJ
Pardon the interruption.....But if the video would have used the camera that I have and my favorite lens and would have been shot on Thursday after 6:00 pm facing into the sunset at 74 degrees temperature.....and, well I bet you get my point.
I thought it was a very well done comparison in a real life situation. If I shot only still life, or perhaps macro, but, wait! The video was not about that, was it? It was a VERY interesting REAL LIFE comparison any way you look at it. Out of camera pictures compared by your own eyes in one selected situation.
Huh?
 

jjbigfly

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
88
Sorry, I must have been a bit too obtuse. It was about staying on-topic more than anything. NOTHING against lenses that were not tested (in the vid), or wedding photography, or anything else :smile: Motor sports and auto focus speed was what I though the main thrust of the video.
I suppose that discussion is good regardless. Perhaps I am too straight laced in my thinking.
 

orfeo

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
673
Location
FR
The video is very subjective, but this is the case with just any review out there in the human world of photography items/market...

Anyway let's not forget they do review about all the new stuff, and do it quite good I think. They don't overview détails most of the times and are serious in their review process me thinks. They also stated that it was only their opinion and that's just that, but it shows a real life situation that many photogs could imagine and transpose to their own shooting habits.

And as a GH4 in my bag I can attest the burst mode and AF is just that good, I was impressed because I never had anything that fast... (I'm only an amateur photog BTW)
 

w7ox

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
64
Real Name
Phil Wheeler
The video is very subjective, but this is the case with just any review out there in the human world of photography items/market...

Anyway let's not forget they do review about all the new stuff, and do it quite good I think. They don't overview détails most of the times and are serious in their review process me thinks. They also stated that it was only their opinion and that's just that, but it shows a real life situation that many photogs could imagine and transpose to their own shooting habits.

And as a GH4 in my bag I can attest the burst mode and AF is just that good, I was impressed because I never had anything that fast... (I'm only an amateur photog BTW)
I agree on the "subjective". Since they sell products they probably avoid overly denigrating anything, so you need to read between the lines. But it was interesting to see them actually compare cameras; often they show a single item and tell how great it is.

Based just on the video as shown, I was unable to really conclude anything for myself. It matters not: I have my GH4 now and it's just as good as I hoped.
 

napilopez

Contributing Editor
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
826
Location
NYC Area
Real Name
Napier Lopez
Has anyone actually tested the GH4 with say a kid on a swing? I have been testing the e-m1 in C-AF with tracking using my baby on park swing
and her no longer used baby swing at home in dim condtions and I find that while the camera can track it fails flat when the swing changes direction (as swings tends to do.. lol).

So basically once it gets focus it will track the swing coming or going but it'll lose focus during the switch in direction and take a second or so to get it again. Not sure what the cause is but I am curious if DSRLs with full cross type AF and the GH4 does any better in these situations.

Next I am going to try to see if the e-m1 works in sports situation at Karate. Previously I have found that the supposedly strong AF on the 7D work well enough but was liable to miss quite often when the action gets fast.
Kids on a swing should be no issue for the GH4, although in that case I'd imagine regular C-AF would be better than using tracking (on any camera, really).

Yes, the µ4/3 lens was the 35-100/2.8, the 1.4 firmware seems to help the precision of the E-M1 AF, but here's the thing motor sports is generally has deterministic motion. I've been shooting it since the late 70's and it's not that demanding on AF. Shoot things like football (American or the one in the rest of the world), birds in flight or other non-deterministic high speed motion and the hit rate drops off with mirrorless.
I agree, although its still a useful and realistic test scenario where the vast majority of mirrorless cameras would have failed before this newest generation. I've been testing the cameras on hand with erratic subjects (again, mainly my 2 chihuahuas), and the GH4 is giving me the best hit rate, a bit over the D7000 I just borrowed, though that camera has a lot of AF modes and settings I need to compare more. Difference is the GH4 is more likely to be either completely in focus or completely out of focus. The hit rate will drop with anything, really. A large reason DSLRs work better for that type of motyion is also just the fact that you get "live view" while panning the camera and following your subject.

Didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but doesn't the deeper DOF of m4/3 make it easier than APS-C sensors to do C-AF w/ a "fast" long lens? I.e. an f/2.8 m4/3 lens has 2x the DOF of an equivalent APS-C lens?
Yep, I mentioned that earlier in passing, and said that I've matched the lenses I have on hand for DoF, and the GH4 still gives me the best overall performance.

I saw that video yesterday. I just wish the GH4 contrast detect CAF AF would work with non Panasonic lenses. The E-M1's phase detection does. Regardless it's great to see how far mirrorless cameras have come.
In all my testing the GH4 actually works very well with Olympus lenses. It gives you a better burst rate with the 45mm f1.8 than it does the 25mm f1.4, although accuracy does seem better with the Panasonic lenses.

The video is very subjective, but this is the case with just any review out there in the human world of photography items/market...

Anyway let's not forget they do review about all the new stuff, and do it quite good I think. They don't overview détails most of the times and are serious in their review process me thinks. They also stated that it was only their opinion and that's just that, but it shows a real life situation that many photogs could imagine and transpose to their own shooting habits.

And as a GH4 in my bag I can attest the burst mode and AF is just that good, I was impressed because I never had anything that fast... (I'm only an amateur photog BTW)
Agreed!
 

gotak

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
185
Location
Toronto
I tried regular c-af and the result seems similar but I'll give it another go when we next go to the park.

If anyone with a gh4 can give the swing scenario a go I'd appreciate it. I would like to know if a gh4 might make a better action camera as my kid will be moving on her own steam soon.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

dav1dz

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2012
Messages
926
Location
Canada
I thought GH4 would have DoF measured for all native lenses. Supporting only Panasonic is kind of short sighted?
 

napilopez

Contributing Editor
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
826
Location
NYC Area
Real Name
Napier Lopez
I tried regular c-af and the result seems similar but I'll give it another go when we next go to the park.

If anyone with a gh4 can give the swing scenario a go I'd appreciate it. I would like to know if a gh4 might make a better action camera as my kid will be moving on her own steam soon.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
I'll give it a try sometime this week. I'm shooting a 5K run at a park, so I should be able to catch some kids on a swing at some point. If the GH4 can reasonably handle my dogs though, I'm sure it can handle the swings. Though tracking sometimes gets confused when your subject changes its appearance by turning or something, C-AF alone very rarely seems to have significant issue.
 

jurgen

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Messages
120
I thought GH4 would have DoF measured for all native lenses. Supporting only Panasonic is kind of short sighted?
I felt the same way, owning primarily Olympus primes, but I've been surprised by how quick and accurate they are (and I had high expectations in this regard, coming from an E-M1). I imagine the choice was in part informed by the fact that Panasonic doesn't control Olympus lens firmware, but regardless, I don't think anyone has anything to worry about in regards to focus speed. Even my old Panny 14-42 version one is fast on this camera.
 
Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Copyright © 2009-2019 Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom