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Tests of the banding behaviour with the Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 II lens

Discussion in 'Native Lenses' started by Machi, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. Machi

    Machi Mu-43 Top Veteran

    563
    May 23, 2015
    I promised some time ago in different thread that I'll look to the banding problem of Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 lens,
    or more precisely II version which I own.
    I did some quick tests already month ago but results were rather inconclusive.
    They showed some banding issues which were not present with fully manual ("unelectronic") lens Canon 50mm f/1.4 (my comparison lens) but differences was relatively mild.
    This was something unexpected as I have lots of photos which show much more pronounced banding. Since then I wanted to do more thorough testing and I finally did it.

    Tests were done with Olympus E-M10II + Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 II lens at ~23°C room temperature. Testing scene was very dark as I wanted to see behaviour under low light conditions (signal is mostly noise from the sensor) but it contains weak red light as I wanted to do majority of tests with active autofocus.

    Inserted images demonstrates major points of my comments on the tests.

    1test.jpg
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    First was test of dependence of banding on shutter speed between 1/4000s up to 1sec for f/1.7 at ISO400 (both electronic and mechanical shutter) and ISO1600 (electronic shutter only). One sequence at ISO400 and mechanical shutter was with noise reduction ON as I thought (based on my older tests) that it can have some effect.
    I used Canon FD 50mm f/1.4 with Camdiox focal reducer for comparison and I did it only for scenario where I expected worst results (for this manual lens) - ISO1600, electronic shutter.
    Results showed banding in almost all Panasonic images.
    Shutter speed has no significant effect on banding.
    Images taken at ISO1600 shows much worse banding than those at ISO400.
    Images taken with Canon 50mm at ISO1600 don't show any banding at all.
    Noise reduction has no visible effect on banding.

    2test.jpg
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    Another sequence of photos was intended to test effect of electronic shutter, mechanical shutter and mechanical shutter with anti-shake (0sec).
    Those were taken at f/1.7 with ISO200, 400 and 1600 and with shutter speeds 1/100s, 1/50s and 1sec.
    Banding shows no dependence on type of shutter.
    Banding at ISO200 and ISO400 was comparable, ISO1600 was clearly worst of them.

    test4.jpg
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    Then there was a test about dependence of banding on ISO settings (all analog settings 200 up to 3200 + 6400). Here the results were most interesting.
    Based on previous tests with ISO200, 400 and 1600, I expected more banding with higher ISO.
    That wasn't exactly what happended.
    From ISO200 up to ISO640 results were similar with clear but weak banding.
    At ISO800 banding was very bad. The same happens with ISO1000, 1250 and 1600 (as it was already observed in previous tests).
    Surprisingly at ISO 2000, 2500, 3200 and 6400, banding was effectively nonexistent (comparable to the Canon lens).

    test3.jpg
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    Last two tests was only quick ones.
    First was about dependence on aperture settings. I did it only at ISO1600 and 1/50sec at f/1.7, 2.8, 4.0, 5.6 and 8.
    Changing aperture has no effect on results (they were all similarly bad as expected for ISO1600).
    Second one was about different AF settings again for ISO1600, 1/50sec and at f/1.7.
    Only three images were taken with S-AF, C-AF and MF settings. No visible difference in results.

    My conclusions for now are that banding is strongly dependent on ISO settings where at low ISO (200-640) banding is visible but not significant for most practical cases.
    At ISO800 up to 1600 banding is strong and it probably affects photos.
    For high ISO settings (2000-3200, 6400) banding isn't a problem.
    Other settings, which I tested (shutter type, shutter speed, type of focus), have lower (if any) impact on banding.

    Next I want to repeat tests with my other Olympus camera (E-PM2) and I want to test banding behaviour at shutter speeds >1 sec.

    Also if someone want to add more data to this thread, it would be helpful and I'll appreciate it as all my results could be caused by my copy of lens (or camera) and behaviour could be different for the other copies.
    It's easy to test some basic conclusion of my tests.
    It only takes 4 images (RAWs) at 1/50s f/1.7 with lens cover on at ISO640, ISO800, ISO1600 and ISO2000 ("dark frames"). According to my results ISO640 will show weak banding, ISO800 and ISO1600 will show strong banding and ISO2000 will show no banding.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
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  2. Egregius V

    Egregius V Mu-43 Veteran Subscribing Member

    466
    Jun 14, 2015
    Massachusetts, USA
    Rev. Gregory Vozzo
    A while back, I tested banding under rather different conditions. I noticed that someone reproduced it reliably with sunlit venetian blinds in the picture, so I did that and took some other high-contrast photos exposed normally (using the histogram as a guide). Banding showed up in the shadow areas at all ISOs and was more severe at smaller apertures (barely visible at f/1.7). Testing with the E-M5 II, I found that there was zero banding using the electronic shutter (JPEG and RAW). So I'm rather surprised at your test results. I can't tell what's going on - all of your photos are labeled 1/50s shutter speed - but am suspicious of your light source, being it's artificial and therefore subject to flickering. That will contaminate your test results. Any artificial light in front of the camera (even if outside the picture) will introduce banding at certain shutter speeds, especially with the electronic shutter.

    Another thing I observed is that the banding pattern varies from camera to camera, leaving a band-free area in some part of the frame. I tested an E-PL5, E-M10 (original), and E-M5 II. Your test images show banding across the whole image. I don't think it's the same as what I tested for. (Look here for a sample.)
     
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  3. Egregius V

    Egregius V Mu-43 Veteran Subscribing Member

    466
    Jun 14, 2015
    Massachusetts, USA
    Rev. Gregory Vozzo
    When there is high contrast, and a reliable banding-free approach can't be utilized, merging bracketed shots into an HDR image can provide a banding-free result. Here is an example:

    Low-light image with overexposed parts:

    P9141236.JPG
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    Underexposed image showing some banding:
    P9141238.JPG
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    A more underexposed image to merge with the first:
    P9141237.JPG
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    The result, using Photomatix Pro:
    P9141236-7_fused-interior.jpg
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  4. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, USA
    Did you try setting the 20mm using manual focus as opposed to AF? I wonder if the AF itself effects banding.
     
  5. Machi

    Machi Mu-43 Top Veteran

    563
    May 23, 2015
    From practical reasons I showed only images at 1/50s (it's favorite automatic shutter speed of my camera with P20 at low light conditions).
    But in the first test I tested other shutter speeds (1/4000 up to 1s) and it has no significant effect on results.
    Used red light looks almost flicker free as there is no banding in the images taken with Canon (or with P20 at ISO2000+).
    I also now tested what I recommended in the last paragraph and results are the same even without the light.

    Yes, I tried it but only quickly. Three images at ISO1600 with MF, S-AF and C-AF are in the last composite image.
    That's another thing which I want to more cover in other tests (different AF settings with ISO different than 1600).
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  6. robcee

    robcee Mu-43 Veteran

    397
    Jan 10, 2016
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Rob Campbell
    having owned a P20 and tested it on both the EM5mk1 and EM1mk1, I theorized that the older focus mechanism on that lens was causing a greater power draw which manifested in the electronics in the sensor. I don't recommend that lens for users of Olympus cameras for this reason. The banding (and poor autofocus) makes that lens not really suitable for any kind of light-challenged shooting.

    Always nice to see more science though! I'm really amazed Panasonic hasn't updated this with a more modern autofocus motor / design given its popularity.
     
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  7. Christop82

    Christop82 Mu-43 All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Sep 10, 2016
    Were these pictures taken manually by taking multiple pictures, or was it automatic using in camera bracketing?
     
  8. hazwing

    hazwing Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Nov 25, 2012
    Australia
    Thanks, appreciate these tests, even though I don't have a 20mm 1.7

    Just to clarify, iso 400 vs 1600... are you pushing the exposure the ISO 400 to match be similar to the ISO 1600. Are you pushing the exposure of the 1600 as well, and if so how many stops?
     
  9. Egregius V

    Egregius V Mu-43 Veteran Subscribing Member

    466
    Jun 14, 2015
    Massachusetts, USA
    Rev. Gregory Vozzo
    Bracketing, hand-held.

    This was a really dark scene. The only light in the room was coming from the Virgin Mary's crown and a few candles.

    Machi, you've clearly found a way to bring out the worst in your 20mm lens.:th_salute: I, too, would like to know more about how you're exposing these shots and what else might be going on. (The banding doesn't normally disappear with high ISOs; if anything, it becomes more noticeable, unless you're changing something else like exposure as ISO increases.)

    How much banding are you seeing with real-world usage of this camera and lens? It shouldn't be this bad.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  10. Machi

    Machi Mu-43 Top Veteran

    563
    May 23, 2015
    I cannot agree. One of the major reason why I did those tests was to find conditions under which banding isn't problem.
    And I think that I found them.
    P20 is good lens but it has few bugs. :) 

    Thanks!
    BTW, I think that for Panasonic it's relatively negligible problem.
     
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  11. Machi

    Machi Mu-43 Top Veteran

    563
    May 23, 2015
    Yes, ISO400 is matched with ISO1600.
    Exposure compensation is +7 for the ISO400 and +5 for the ISO1600.
    It effectively shows read-out noise from the sensor.
     
  12. Machi

    Machi Mu-43 Top Veteran

    563
    May 23, 2015
    All results are with very high exposure compensation (+~5 up to +~7).
    So they shows mostly readout noise from the sensor (which is affected by banding).
    In normal usage, with proper exposure, weak banding would not be visible.
    Strong banding between ISO800 and ISO1600 is visible under right circumstances (see below).

    I found that in real world usage I have no problem at low ISO settings.
    I found many cases between ISO800 and ISO1600 where banding is visible in darker, flat parts of photos (as expected for the read-out noise effect).
    Major problem with it is that it's a much harder nut to crack for the denoising algorithms than nice homogenous noise,
    normally produced by the most sensors.

    But I really don't want to scare someone. Properly exposed photo taken with P20 will be alright under most circumstances.
    I think that slow AF is much bigger problem of this lens than banding (and even with slow AF it's a nice lens).
    All tests which I have done are about pushing the boundaries of photographic technique.
     
  13. robcee

    robcee Mu-43 Veteran

    397
    Jan 10, 2016
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Rob Campbell
    If you can make it work, good on you. It is a great lens optically, and no, pannies don't suffer the same problem.
     
  14. SojiOkita

    SojiOkita Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 23, 2014
    France
    On my sample, there is no banding if I use f/1.7.
    As soon as I change the aperture (f/1.8), banding occurs (more visible at high ISO).
    I have one example of banding at f/1.7, though, but only one over a large number of photos.

    It does not match your observation, so it's highly possible that the banding phenomenon is different among samples.
    I don't think it depends on the sensor sample, because I tested my lens on several bodies with similar sensors (my E-M10, E-M10 II, E-M5 II) with the same results.
    Of course, on bodies like E-M1 or GM5, no banding issue.
     
  15. Impulse

    Impulse Mu-43 Regular Subscribing Member

    83
    Apr 18, 2014
    Puerto Rico
    Frank
    Unless you happen to have a GH3 or some other Pana body the used the same kinda Sony sensor... :p 
     
  16. robcee

    robcee Mu-43 Veteran

    397
    Jan 10, 2016
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Rob Campbell
    oh really? I didn't know any of the pannies suffered that problem. Come on, Panasonic, fix yer lens.
     
  17. stiblee

    stiblee Mu-43 Regular

    44
    Dec 11, 2016
    This banding issue has been around since the Olympus E-M5 and Panasonic 20mm f1.7 version 1 (version 2 just has new cosmetics):

    Olympus acknowledges E-M5 / 20mm banding and is working on fix


    Olympus acknowledges E-M5 / 20mm banding and is working on fix

    After checking every possible combination of a body and a lens, we found the phenomena only with this combination (OM-D, E-M5 coupled with the Panasonic 20mm pancake lens). We are continuing to study how we can eliminate this and we recommend for our customers using E-M5 with Panasonic 20mm pancake lens to keep a low ISO to avoid this problem for the time being.

    In the Panasonic GH3 manual they also warn about banding with the 20mm f1.7.

    Here is a post by one of the dpreview staff about it:

    Re: 20 mm lens banding on EM1 and GX7?: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

    Here is just one of the many long threads that fully document the banding problem:

    Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 II (H-H020A) - Banding: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

    Pay particular attention to the tsi and Anders W posts. You will see that tsi repeatedly disassembled his 20mm, removed a part, reassembled, and tested. Each time he would then replace the part and remove a different part. He finally isolated what seemed to be causing the banding for his 20mm and camera body combination.
     
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  18. MarkRyan

    MarkRyan Instagram: @MRSallee Subscribing Member

    856
    May 3, 2013
    California
    Thanks for the link. Bravo to those two, both for the diligence in tracking down the issue and for admirably putting up with some truly idiot "dispute" from someone with zero experience with the scenario they were testing.

    I don't shoot over ISO400 very often, but did get one shot spoiled by banding with the 20/1.7 at ISO200. I believe it was on E-P5. I haven't used the 20/1.7 much on my E-M5ii.
     
  19. PhotoDmiK

    PhotoDmiK Mu-43 Regular

    126
    May 26, 2015
    I have same banding on Pen-F +14/2.5 at ISO200 1s f/22)
     
  20. Egregius V

    Egregius V Mu-43 Veteran Subscribing Member

    466
    Jun 14, 2015
    Massachusetts, USA
    Rev. Gregory Vozzo
    Can you post a picture, PhotoDmiK? Is it only at very small apertures like f/22 and only with that lens?
     
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