Strange vertical lines EM1

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by Imjinman, Apr 30, 2015.

  1. Imjinman

    Imjinman Mu-43 Regular

    54
    Sep 22, 2011
    Sydney
    Hi

    I apprentice that this may be off topic, but I look for help from my fellow EMers.

    I have noticed strange vertical lines that appears on certain, but not all, photographs. They are not on the original ORF file. After post production editing they are not in the final edited ORF file...but as Lightroom 6 loads the edited image the lines are there and then as the image builds over milliseconds it disappears.

    But then as I export the apparently line free ORF to TIFF or JPG, they re-appear in the final image. Seems Bizarre. Any thoughts?

    TOP: Attached is a JPG showing the lines to the right under the rain clouds (they are not rain!) (as it is exported from LR). Its more apparent when you open up the JPG rather than view in the browser

    BELOW: a screen shot of the line free, edited ORF file in LR prior to expport:

    Is this normal- but why should a grid appear on photos?

    With Grid after export to JPG. without grid- Snap of LR ORF.JPG
    cheers

    BC
     
  2. barry13

    barry13 Super Moderator; Photon Wrangler

    Mar 7, 2014
    Southern California
    Barry
  3. Imjinman

    Imjinman Mu-43 Regular

    54
    Sep 22, 2011
    Sydney
  4. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    I can't see the lines! (I'm using a good quality, calibrated monitor).
    Please can you point them out, or show a crop with them at full size?
    Are they perfectly vertical, or curved? If curved they are probably banding due to JPG being 8 bit.
    Shallow gradients in skies is where banding usually shows up.
     
  5. Imjinman

    Imjinman Mu-43 Regular

    54
    Sep 22, 2011
    Sydney
    Here is another image, and this time a JPG. Should be pretty obvious on this one Storms at Treachery Beach, Apr 15_0033. . As I said before the originating edited ORF has no bands- just when converted to the TIFF (16 Bit) or JPEG.

    I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!
     
  6. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    I also can't see any lines on the very dark image above? This is becoming more and more puzzling.
    Could it be a problem with your monitor?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. bredman

    bredman Mu-43 Veteran

    458
    May 30, 2013
    Sherwood Forest
    Pete
    I see them. If you expand the image and brighten your monitor they are quite visible, then moving the image around a bit helps.
     
  8. bredman

    bredman Mu-43 Veteran

    458
    May 30, 2013
    Sherwood Forest
    Pete
    They are vertical in the centre and start to curve further from the centre. There is horizontal curved banding too, i think. In the same area.
     
  9. Brian Beezley

    Brian Beezley Mu-43 All-Pro

    x.
    Image intensity values along the dotted line plotted with Image Analyzer.

    Brian
     
  10. ManofKent

    ManofKent Hopefully still learning

    789
    Dec 26, 2014
    Faversham, Kent, UK
    Richard
    I can see them with my work monitor on full brightness - no idea why they'd occur in a Tiff if they don't occur in RAW though.
     
  11. siftu

    siftu Mu-43 Top Veteran

    639
    Mar 26, 2015
    Bay Area, CA
    siftu
    I see them. Do they only occur with LR6? How about OV3 or even LR5?
     
  12. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    By putting your last image into Photoshop and making large changes to the levels I can see them. They are not just lines, they are a curved grid pattern. I have seen this once before and it is not banding, it is an artifact from the E-M1's sensor. It is only visible following the most extreme post processing.

    I thought I was the only person who had ever encountered it - now you are the second. I will try to find my original posting, with the dramatic example I made.
     
  13. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    Here we are, see this thread...
    https://www.mu-43.com/threads/70307/
    The grid is not exactly the same but you can see the same curves are in the same place.

    Here is my weird image:
    EM1weird.

    And I hope you don't mind but I have butchered your image to make the lines clearly visible:
    [​IMG]

    It doesn't worry me, it is an interesting quirk of the camera.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. mpg01

    mpg01 Mu-43 Regular

    154
    Oct 21, 2012
    My E-M5 has significant horizontal banding in dark areas, particularly in under exposed shots. I haven't encountered anything like that with the E-M1 but I think that the Olympus (or probably any) sensors don't play nicely with under exposure.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Imjinman

    Imjinman Mu-43 Regular

    54
    Sep 22, 2011
    Sydney
    I am glad that I am not losing the plot. Thank you for highlighting Growltiger. Any thoughts though why I cannot see these in the edited RAW file,in LR6 but I can in the converted TIFF or JPG?

    If I look very carefully at the sensor in my EM1 I can see a grid in the middle- is this related?

    I've changed my profile to Adobe1998 from ProRGB to no avail.

    I'll give Olympus Viewer 3 a go too

    Any other thoughts to remove these?

    Thanks all
     
  16. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    I think they are in RAW file, it is just that you can't see them. I can't prove it and I could be wrong - they could be an artifact of the raw processing. They cannot be removed, you need to learn to avoid them (i.e. correct exposure). They only appear when you do the most extreme contrast enhancement of dark areas.
    If you will share the original ORF I'll take a look at it and try to learn more. Have you tried raw processors other than the Adobe one?

    On my monitor, which is correctly calibrated, using a level of 120, the lines are not visible. You would not see them on a print. If you can see them you have a monitor with the brightness far too high for controlled photographic editing. Monitors, like TVs, come set very bright, to sell them.

    I very much doubt anything you can see on the camera itself is related.
     
  17. Imjinman

    Imjinman Mu-43 Regular

    54
    Sep 22, 2011
    Sydney
    Happy to send you the ORF- what is the best way to do that? If you PM your email I will dropbox it for you? It's just strange that the edited RAW doesn't show them in the same monitor. I'll try Olympus 3 a bit later

    My monitor, Dell 2410, is calibrated using spyder. Brightness is at 75%

    Cheers
     
  18. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    I've sent you a PM.

    Brightness at 75% doesn't really mean anything. You can use your Spyder to measure and adjust the brightness. I suggest you set the target to 120.
     
  19. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    649
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    I reeceived all the files. I can see the grid in the TIF and JPG you sent.

    I have tried various experiments on the ORF and surprisingly I cannot replicate the problem. I don't have Lightroom 6, but I tried the same settings you show in Lightroom 5.4. The exported JPGs and TIFs are fine. What is odd is that the histogram I get with your settings is so compressed compared to yours.

    I then tried it in ACR, which has the same raw engine as LR, and again cannot replicate the problem. Again the results look fine, no grid.

    I then tried it in Olympus Viewer 3 (latest version). I made no edits this time and simply exported a JPG. Again the result was fine, no grid.

    I think you should try Olympus Viewer 3 and see if you can replicate the problem there.

    Puzzling. Perhaps there is an issue in LR6. What I do see from the histogram is that the original ORF has an incredibly low contrast, one of the lowest of any photograph I have seen. So the image is very low in data, no matter what processing you do.

    One suggestion I have is to try some different edit settings in LR, which can still give a similar look. Set all the sliders back to the middle. Then increase the contrast slider all the way to the maximum (100), before you start working on any of the lower sliders. The four below that all do a lot of stretching to what is already poor data, due to the very low contrast. Perhaps this will help work around the problem.
     
  20. Imjinman

    Imjinman Mu-43 Regular

    54
    Sep 22, 2011
    Sydney
    Hi

    I have tried Olympus 3, made similar edits and like you I cannot replicate the problem. BTW when I installed LR6/CC it seems to have removed LR 5.x and so couldn't try that

    I can only assume therefore that it is a problem with LR6. Interestingly I am using an AMD Radion 6570 Graphics card, and Adobe have recognised that there is a bug with this chip and the graphics accelerator option. Guess, I will wait for the bug fix and try again then.

    I am interested in your feedback re lowest contrast you have ever seen. Is this a result of the late afternoon, incredibly stormy scene, or should I have considered something else in my composition, etc? Other similar photos from that and another session in Sydney are here: https://plus.google.com/photos/1087...ms/6143680090424480785?authkey=CM2r8pqyw7y6Lw

    Any feedback you can provide, I'd appreciate it.

    And thank you for taking your time to look into this for me. I'll let you know how I go with LR6 upgardes.

    Cheers

    BC