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Sony is killing it, what's the next move from Panasonic/Olympus?

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by ijm5012, Jun 11, 2015.

  1. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    I'm sure many of you have seen the recent announcement from Sony about the A7r II, RX10 II, and RX100 IV. I must say that I'm really impressed with what Sony has been doing lately with their cameras, starting with the A7s.

    The A7r II is a damn impressive camera:
    • Internal 4K WITH IBIS! (Panasonic said they couldn't do it, but Sony found a way)
    • 42MP BSI sensor
    • 102,400 ISO
    • On sensor PDAF that works with A-mount lenses AND Canon lenses (I haven't seen any videos yet, but all of the reports I've seen have said it's impressively quick), and delivers exceptional AF tracking
    • Full Frame or Super 35mm 4K (oversampling in super 35 to eliminate any moire or aliasing)
    Then when we look at the RX10 II / RX100 IV:
    • Next-gen BSI 20MP 1" sensor
    • Burst shooting up to 16 fps
    • Max shutter speed of 1/32,000
    • Can record 40x slo-mo at 960 fps!
    • Anti-Distortion shutter to eliminate rolling shutter when using the e-shutter

    Now I know that the FE mount is lacking in lenses, but they'll build the lens lineup up over time, similar to what was done with m43. They also offer some pretty good lenses as we speak (16-35 f/4, 24-70 f/4, 70-200 f/4), along with the fantastic (albeit expensive) prime lenses like the Zeiss 35 f/1.4, Zeiss Batis, etc.

    The system is definitely expensive, but I think Sony is really gaining momentum with a lot of FF DSLR users from either Canon or Nikon.

    I think this begs the question, what is the next "big" camera to come from Olympus or Panasonic (obviously the E-M1 II and GX8/GH5). But will they bring some truly "groundbreaking" features along with them? I certainly hope so, because Sony seems to really be pushing the envelope in the Point & Shoot, Bridge, and ILC camera markets.
     
  2. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I think Panasonic's LX100 and FZ1000 are more impressive in terms of the "bridge" camera concept. Okay they don't do 960fps, but the LX100 actually has DOF control (and first with 4K) and the FZ1000 has 4K and double the zoom for half the cost of the new RX10
     
  3. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, CA
    Does all that tech make anyone take better pictures? Probably not. Just means I can get last gen tech for clearance prices! :D

     
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  4. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    I agree that the LX100 & FZ1000 do still have certain advantages over their Sony counterparts, but the advancements that Sony is making are pretty remarkable. 960 FPS in a consumer camera? Being able to eliminate rolling shutter with an electronic shutter? That's pretty impressive IMO.
     
  5. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    If the rolling shutter thing actually provides a meaningful difference, then that is outstanding for video. But what typical consumer would make use of 960fps? I can't think of a reason I would want to turn 1 second of action into 32 seconds of video.

    I am interested to read more about the IBIS on the new A7. I wonder if they use digital stabilization for the 4K video. Since they are doing 2x oversampling, it seems like they would have a lot of data to work with to make that happen. Is there a crop factor for the 4K?

    I wonder if it is really that Panasonic cannot do it, or if they can't do it and keep the camera cheap. Sony has a $3000+ price tag to work with here where Panasonic is in the $700-1500 range.
     
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  6. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    4K with IBIS rated at 4.5 stops will definitely allow for far smoother video than previous options (short of hauling a big tripod and fluid head).

    ISO 102,500 will allow you to take some crazy low light shots, and then scale the image down to minimize the noise to nothing. I watched a video review by Phillip Bloom, and the videos he was able to shoot at ISO 80,000 were remarkable. Yes, the 12MP sensor in the A7s is a whole different beast, but I bet the sensor in the A7R will still be damn impressive.

    Also with the on-sensor PDAF, I'm guess that AF in 4K will actually be useful, something that sadly isn't the case for the GH4 where the AF in 4K mode is quite a bit slower compared to 1080.


    So in short, yes I actually do believe that some of the new tech in the A7r II will allow people to create better photos/video. I personally don't need it for what I do, but for people out there who do I'm certain they'll love the advancement in tech. Either way, it's impressive what Sony has been doing lately, I don't think anyone can deny that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    It wouldn't turn 1s into 32s (that would only be 768 fps). It turns it in to 40s! Haha

    I don't believe it uses any digital stabilization (like what the E-M5 II does), because it can shoot 4k using the entire sensor OR the super 35 crop that is oversampled. I think it relies on the mechanical IBIS to stabilize it, which is actually better because you could add any additional stabilization in post if needed.

    As for the cost, yeah I don't know. But they have a joint venture with Olympus in m43, why not share the R&D expense so that the GH5 and E-M1 II both have IBIS with 4K, and the the consumers decide which camera they'd like to own?
     
  8. GFFPhoto

    GFFPhoto Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 24, 2013
    GH4 knocked out all of Sonys then current cameras, A7rII has everything the GH4 lacked (except a low price), GH5 will up the ante, A7rmk3 will be unbelievable, GH6... OMG why shoot anything else etc etc etc.
     
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  9. Holoholo55

    Holoholo55 Mu-43 All-Pro

    Aug 13, 2014
    Honolulu, HI
    Walter
    What I'm hoping for is that some of that cool Sony sensor tech ends up in an Olympus camera! :)
     
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  10. ijm5012

    ijm5012 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 2, 2013
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ian
    True. The big "thing" for the GH4 was INTERNAL 4K (unlike the A7s which while it is a monster, requires another $2k to get a recording device, making it a rather large investment).

    The GH4 was released early February of 2014. We're now 1 1/3 year down the road and the A7r II was just announced. It definitely is an amazing camera, if you can stomach the cost of the camera (2x the price of a GH4) and the lenses. Like you said, we'll see what the GH5/E-M1 II bring to the table when they're released (not that I'll buy them, I'm perfectly happy with 2 GH4's).
     
  11. Ulfric M Douglas

    Ulfric M Douglas Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Mar 6, 2010
    Northumberland
    We can tell! :biggrin:
     
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  12. ripgriffith

    ripgriffith Mu-43 Regular

    34
    May 28, 2015
    Yes, the A7RII seems a remarkable camera, but it's full frame and, looking at it from the perspective of a m4/3 user, you just can't defeat the physics of FF lenses: they're big, they're heavy and they're expensive, compared to these teeny-tiny things we stick on the front of our cameras.
     
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  13. lenshoarder

    lenshoarder Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 7, 2010
    Olympus yes, Panasonic no. Olympus is effectively a Sony division so why wouldn't they share the technology with them? Panasonic on the otherhand, is a true competitor. Also, Panasonic tends to make it's own sensors. I don't recall them ever using 3rd party sensors in their M43 cameras. Sony's stacked sensors are "5 years ahead of anyone else" according to them. So they probably have a patent lock on it.
     
  14. lenshoarder

    lenshoarder Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 7, 2010
    Not really that expensive anymore. Sony has changed that. Before Sony got into FF, full frame was a $2000-$3000+ affair just for the body. The FF Sony cameras pushed all that down. Now $1000 will get you a FF camera body. Just 5 years ago, that would have been unheard of.

    As for lenses, there are so many cheap and wonderful legacy lenses. They really aren't that big compared to M43 glass at all.
     
  15. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium
    the sony is a very fine camera... full of some great tech.. I might even buy one if I felt it offered something I could use.....think maybe 40 plus megapixels is way more than I need, and maybe the non r version might make a better fit as a platform my legacy non AF lenses but it is playing in a market that oly and panasonic don't play in... its a 3000 dollar plus body... thats not a territory that m43 attempt to compete in. The A7 is going after canon and nikon.

    if you are happy with bigger and slower native lenses or really need that extra resolution then go for it

    K
     
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  16. kinlau

    kinlau Mu-43 Top Veteran

    836
    Feb 29, 2012
    960 fps is at a reduced resolution, not even 720p, only VGA'ish.
     
  17. ripgriffith

    ripgriffith Mu-43 Regular

    34
    May 28, 2015
    Of course there are small and relatively lightweight legacy lenses which are manual focus, manual aperture, but comparing equal for equal, a 50mm f1.4 Leica Summilux is much larger and heavier than my 25mm Panny/Leica Summilux and, remembering back, my 28-75 Tamron SP 2.8 zoom was huge, maybe 3 times the size and many times the weight of my current Panny 14-42 II, and the Tamron only covered an APS-C sensor. I don't want to belabor the point, but I really think equal for equal, the FF lenses are going to be bigger, heavier and more costly than m4/3rds.
     
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  18. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    If I could get a bunch of compact primes and zooms for the A7 that are razor sharp at all apertures and cost under $600 each, I'd already have picked Sony over Panasonic. But you can't get those for FE mount. And the camera is only half the system.
     
  19. kevinparis

    kevinparis Cantankerous Scotsman

    Feb 12, 2010
    Gent, Belgium
    the price I am seeing for the a72r is that it is still a 3000 dollar body..

    legacy lenses on an A7 are still way bigger than their equivalents on m43... if you are saying otherwise you are kidding yourself.. I have a fine selection of legacy lenses.. and while they can produce some interesting looks..the user experience compared to native m43 is chalk and cheese

    K
     
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  20. Steven

    Steven Mu-43 All-Pro

    May 25, 2012
    USA
    The A7 series is pretty cool. If money was no object , I would probably get one with a couple of the smaller primes like the 35mm/55mm, and maybe try some of the legacy lenses.
    Rx100 is always impressive. I wonder how much better the image quality improvement of the sensor is. I think for an average person, it's all the camera they need. Price is pretty high though.
     
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