Sony FF mirrorless - game changer?

Discussion in 'Other Systems' started by robbie36, Oct 12, 2013.

  1. robbie36

    robbie36 Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 25, 2010
    Bangkok
    rob collins
    Yeah I know it is silly getting excited about cameras that havent been announced yet but this seems to me to be about the most exciting development in mirrorless in the last couple of years.

    So what is Sonyalpharumors saying...
    1) 2 cameras to be announced A7 (24MP) and A7r (36MP). Cameras to be about the same size and look as the E-M5.
    2) Cameras to be priced at US$1,698 for the A7 and US$2,198 for the A7r. This seems surprising low to me. Sony doesnt seem to be trying to extract a premium for being first out the block (other than Leica).
    3) 4 lenses I think. Kit zoom 24-70, Zeiss 24-70 f4, 35 2.8 and 55 1.8. It will be particularly interesting to see the size of the Zeiss zoom - I suspect this will be the stumbling block of the system.

    I can certainly see one of these in my future - at some point. I can see it supplementing my M43 gear probably with primes. And I will probably wait a year or two for them to iron out the kinks before jumping in.

    Although this is competition to the upper end of M43 - I can see E-M5 owners buying this rather than an E-M1 for example - if I was Canikon, I would be seriously worried.
     
  2. Promit

    Promit Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 6, 2011
    Baltimore, MD
    Promit Roy
    I thought seriously about buying one but... the lenses are few and will probably be expensive. No point adapting manual lenses, a SpeedBooster onto a regular APS-C NEX would be cheaper. It's not going to have the raw performance (AF etc) of a 6D or D600/610 (which are available at similar pricing to the A7). And it'll probably balance poorly with zoom lenses.

    At least that's what I keep telling myself.
     
  3. Does anyone know whether the D600 and 6D have been game changers in terms of sales vis-a-vis high end APS-C DSLRs?
     
  4. RT_Panther

    RT_Panther Mu-43 Legend

    May 4, 2011
    Texas
    The D600 started off with a huge bang (mainly due to price) but then soured with the oil spot issue. The subsequent release of the D610 was like rubbing salt in the wounds of those who paid retail for the D600.

    Moral Of The Story: Make sure you have no oil spot issues that would ruin a release.

    Addendum: The mirrorless Sony Full Frames shouldn't suffer from this...:biggrin:
     
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  5. robbie36

    robbie36 Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 25, 2010
    Bangkok
    rob collins
    I dont think there is a lot of data released on this.

    We can however see that there has been a 'shift' from APS-C to FF from the lens sales data. In the first 8 months of this year FF lens sales are up 22% while smaller than FF lens sales are down 5%.
     
  6. gochugogi

    gochugogi Mu-43 Veteran

    If Sony wants to be a game changer they will have to work long and hard on their customer service and support. Their track record has been pretty bad thus far.
     
  7. wjiang

    wjiang Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I can see those who like FF going this way eventually, IFF the lens selection is good. It's in a slightly different segment to m4/3 though, IMO - it seems to promise FF quality in a system as small as possible, where as m4/3 is about the smallest system that delivers good enough results.

    Two issues I see:
    1) Being FF, I suspect it will be difficult adapting existing high quality lenses to the system, unlike m4/3, which has a smaller flange distance and sensor area easily covered by a larger lens. In saying that, even m4/3 is large compared to say, C-mount. It's always easier adapting a large lens to a smaller system than the other way around or to adapt similarly sized systems. The existing lens aspect will probably be the only thing that Canikon still has going for them.

    2) Being FF, the native lenses will need to be larger than m4/3, irrespective of how small the body might be - the NEX E-mount lenses are generally bigger than m4/3 lenses, for example, and any FF lens will be even bigger. Stability and ergonomics on a small body could be an issue, and you'd start to exceed the size and weight limits imposed by the new wave of light and compact bags, tripods, etc, designed for mirrorless. Check out this site, where you can place an existing small mirrorless body next to a FF body, mount lenses on each, and try to imagine what it would look like if you swapped the FF lens on the mirrorless body.
     
  8. mattia

    mattia Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 3, 2012
    The Netherlands
    Honestly, I'm very curious to see what pops up. I would love to have a fullframe with a few fast primes and a wideangle zoom for people shooting and landscapes (i.e. shallow DoF work and stuff that I want lots more detail/resolution on). Since I didn't manage to get the E-M1 via a friend who was in Japan, I'll be waiting a while to see what Sony announces. And I'll seriously considering selling the trust 5DII if Sony comes up with an interesting (Zeiss-based) lens roadmap.

    The combination of an great all-rounder (weather-sealed E-M1, access to high quality 43 glass with AF, good and compact setup with amazing range for travel) plus a smaller, lighter, might-actually-take-it-along-more-often full frame system? Yes please.
     
  9. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    356
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    i totally understand what a landmark product this is and why many are rightfully excited, including me--in theory. a few years ago i had a FF 5d when that camera was the pro standard. along came the apsc x100 and literally, imo, blew the 5d out of the water at iso800-3200. i just two weeks ago received a new epl5 that i coupled with the oly 45/1.8 and found it competes really well with my x100.

    point being, camera tech is at such a point now that its hard to make a bad IQ choice. FF, apsc and even m4/3 are really really close in normal subject IQ. indeed, the tiniest sensored m4/3 may indeed be considered the best tool for things like birding or extreme tele captures. so personally, while FF mirrorless is indeed exciting for many reasons, that will be just a starting point for me. the FF system that pulls me into it will have IBIS, no AA filter, a groundbreaking vf, something better than 'focus peeking' for manual focus, and analogue controls like the fujis. so i'm reserving unreserved excitement til then.
     
  10. dhazeghi

    dhazeghi Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 6, 2010
    San Jose, CA
    Dara
    A gamechanger for whom?

    I can see it doing well among the type of people who have a dozen prime lenses or wanted super-high resolution but weren't happy about the D800's cost.

    Me personally, my cameras are for hiking and traveling. A larger heavier kit without any reasonable alternatives to my key lenses does not appeal in the least.
     
  11. Jonathan F/2

    Jonathan F/2 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Aug 10, 2011
    Los Angeles, CA
    This camera will have to come in cheap. All Nikon/Canon have to do is drop the price of their D610/6D cameras to make whatever Sony makes look like a waste of money. M43 at least has the size advantage and lens selection going for it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. mattia

    mattia Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 3, 2012
    The Netherlands
    If they give me a full-frame, high resolution, D800-like sensor with equivalent quality and resolving power, and sony mount Zeiss 21mm prime, that's a kit that should weigh in at maybe 3 lbs, and a worthy 'second body' for general travel/landscape photography. But then I love printing things that are almost 7 feet wide. It's not just cost, it's also size - particularly manual focus primes are small and light enough for me. It's about striking the ideal balance between quality and size, something the 5DII/D800 don't quite do for me, and the RX1 fails to do because of price vs. non-replaceable lens. And much as I love a 35mm FoV, that's not what I prefer to shoot landscapes with.
     
  13. Mellow

    Mellow Mu-43 All-Pro

    Aug 27, 2010
    Florida or Idaho
    Tom
    I could see a FF NEX replacing my APS-C NEX for using with legacy lenses. It would be very cool to mount a 15mm lens and get a FF 15mm FOV, like the lens was designed to capture.

    But for a system camera? No, for the same reason the existing FF cameras can't supplant m43: lenses. Micro four-thirds really is the goldilocks format for me; the one that best balances small size and great IQ. Every time I look at my 45-150mm Panny, or 20mm Panny, or 12mm Oly I remember why this format is so perfect.
     
  14. ~tc~

    ~tc~ Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 22, 2010
    Houston, TX
    Sony hasn't exactly burned up the lens development scene for NEX - and that market is 1,000,000x larger than it will be for this, meaning you will be stuck with adapted lenses larger than they need to be and with somewhat compromised AF. No thanks.
     
  15. tbyork2012

    tbyork2012 Mu-43 Veteran

    213
    Nov 14, 2012
    Oxford, UK
    I have been waiting for Sony to release a NEX-FF with the 5-axis IBIS technology from Olympus, to use with fast primes for manual focusing; there had been rumors about a collaboration between Sony and Olympus with sharing of technology. Unfortunately it does not appear that this feature is included in the 2 soon to be announced Sony FF cameras. How disappointing. I suppose this will remain my 'dream' camera. But I have to say I am still very happy with my E-P5.

    Boon
     
  16. RT_Panther

    RT_Panther Mu-43 Legend

    May 4, 2011
    Texas
    Addendum: Refurbished D600s are going for $1500 USD now after the above mess....
     
  17. ccunningham

    ccunningham Mu-43 Veteran

    453
    Jul 23, 2010
    I'm not excited by ff much these days. I'm probably the ideal target. As someone who was a 35mm SLR user I have a lot of 35mm format lenses, mostly Nikon, but also some Pentax and Maxxum mount, and even a couple of EF mount lenses, since I tried out the different systems that were available.
    But...
    After using an e-m5 and an x-e1 for a bit, I'm not convinced that FF can give me something I need that I don't already have with the apsc or m43 camera bodies I already have. I should be excited about the d610, but I'm not, not because I don't think it will be great, but I'm just not convinced I need ff anymore. I would be more excited if I could afford the 12-40 f2.8 mz, or the wide angle zoom for x mount.
     
  18. RT_Panther

    RT_Panther Mu-43 Legend

    May 4, 2011
    Texas
    I guess you & I are a wee bit different. I still have & shoot with my Nikon 35mm film bodies along with associated lenses so these ultra cheap and refurbished D600s have peaked my interest. :smile:
     
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  19. alex66

    alex66 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    715
    Jul 23, 2010
    Are Sony going to hit the ground running or is it going to be a crawl again? Looking at the Nex as is there seems to be a lack of lens options compared to m43 when they are a year behind or so. With Olympus we have the option of 3 normal zooms a wide and 2 tele zooms along with 12/17(x2)/45/75 and a 60 macro, then there are the Panasonic lenses too. So unless Sony are going to release this camera with a decent set of lenses what will it offer, sure they will have a good adaptor to use the Alpha lenses but its a fudge at best. So they will have to release the camera in my mind with a reasonable kit lens plus a couple of good primes and a road map showing a lot more that will come soon. Unlike the first Nex cameras that were aimed at those who bought point and shoots these are by their nature aimed at the pro/enthusiast market.
    Size will be another issue; how big will the lenses be? Unlike even the APS they have to be much bigger, though they could build the primes not much bigger than the Leica lenses. I would however consider one if it came at a reasonable price and I could get a superb 50mm, with a zoom it will be too big that I may as well use a DSLR. Since the first ยต43 cameras I have considered them the Barnack for the 21st century, not the best sensor/film size for their time but a cracking compromise for portability and the lenses are superb.
     
  20. gochugogi

    gochugogi Mu-43 Veteran

    For me it's not a question of need but enjoyment of the tools, variety and a little inspiration from a new perspective. I like all the formats, large and small, old and new. But then there are budget issues so you can't have it all. I just sold off the last of my Nikon gear and am going ghetto, only working Canon FF, M43 and 135 film. If I could afford it, I'd have a much larger toy box...