Some thoughts on the new 100 (and a reply to all those knocking it) and Panasonic's USP

stratokaster

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E-shutter on the Panasonic bodies has typically used 10-bit bit depth, whereas the mechanical shutter gives you 12 bits. This means that the e-shutter comes with the risk of higher noise and lower dynamic range. For fast moving objects or panning shots, you will of course also get a rolling shutter effect.
GM1, GM5, GX7, GX8, G9, G90/95, GH5 all produce 12-bit RAW files when using the e-shutter. I would be surprised if this camera produces 10-bit files when used with the e-shutter since this is its main mode of operation.
 

RAH

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The G100 isn't any smaller than an E-M10.
I don't know anything about shutters, but your remark here got me to actually checking the sizes. I knew from reviews that it was about as large, but figured it was lighter in weight because all the reviewers were commenting on its low weight. But, um, here's the thing - it isn't any lighter than an E-M10II (which I was VERY surprised at):
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

So, I'm thinking that perhaps this isn't all that great a replacement for the GM5, as a hyper-small second body. :-(
 

RS86

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I don't know anything about shutters, but your remark here got me to actually checking the sizes. I knew from reviews that it was about as large, but figured it was lighter in weight because all the reviewers were commenting on its low weight. But, um, here's the thing - it isn't any lighter than an E-M10II (which I was VERY surprised at):
View attachment 832610
So, I'm thinking that perhaps this isn't all that great a replacement for the GM5, as a hyper-small second body. :-(
So hmm, it is basically the same size with no IBIS? Wow.

How is it possible to make it weight more than E-M10 II without IBIS & good mechanical shutter? Are those dials plastic, how about otherwise?

Must be related to 4K video (whoever thinks they need it), or maybe they have made it from granite.
 
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ibd

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GM1, GM5, GX7, GX8, G9, G90/95, GH5 all produce 12-bit RAW files when using the e-shutter. I would be surprised if this camera produces 10-bit files when used with the e-shutter since this is its main mode of operation.
My bad, I should have specified "entry-level" models. To the best of my knowledge, the GM1 and GM5, which should be closest to the shutter mechanism on this camera, both produce 10-bit raw files in e-shutter mode. Do you have a source showing that it's actually 12-bit?

Of course, you'd expect Panasonic to go forward with all 12-bit since the GX7, but for example the GX85, which came three years later, dropped back down to 10-bit raw files for e-shutter. So I definitely wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic somehow crippled this entry-level camera in this regard.
 

ibd

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I don't know anything about shutters, but your remark here got me to actually checking the sizes. I knew from reviews that it was about as large, but figured it was lighter in weight because all the reviewers were commenting on its low weight. But, um, here's the thing - it isn't any lighter than an E-M10II (which I was VERY surprised at):
View attachment 832610
So, I'm thinking that perhaps this isn't all that great a replacement for the GM5, as a hyper-small second body. :-(
Maybe the camerasize info is wrong. Most websites list the G100 weight incl. battery as 350g. Which would reverse the scales.
 

exakta

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Thanks to @agentlossing for the shutter explanation. I'll just mention that lacking mechanical speeds above 1/500 or flash synch above 1/50 would actually be fine with me for shooting, after so many years of shooting film under similar constraints. I actually feel spoiled having accurate speeds up to 1/4000.
 

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Maybe the camerasize info is wrong. Most websites list the G100 weight incl. battery as 350g. Which would reverse the scales.
Yes, I thought that Camerasize might be incorrect. But consider the fact that a GM5 weighs 211g. That's what I was thinking the G100 would weigh. So it is in no sense a replacement for the GM5, which is what I was thinking before checking. Oh well.

The problem for Pany, I think, is that it is getting mediocre reviews as a vlogging camera (although some respect because of the relatively high IQ with interchangeable lenses). And now it is looking like it is only a fair still camera. I THOUGHT it was a better GM5 with a better viewfinder (it wouldn't take much to be better than the GM5 evf) and better sensor and LCD. No joy.
 

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Good points about it being the spiritual successor to the GM5, which I mostly agree with, although the "prism" will prohibit it from fitting in places where the GM1/5 could slide into.

My main criticism is vlogging related, mainly the tightness of the 4k crop and the image stabilization. And vloggers are rightfully criticizing it. I can live with 1080P selfie mode, but I think Panasonic really missed an opportunity. If they included sensor IS and it was good, the vlogosphere would be gaga over this camera even if it was $100 more. It would literally be the only game in town at the pricepoint. Instead, it's just another option in a field of flawed candidates.

Perhaps I've been spoiled by the image stabilization of the Insta 360 One X camera that I have. It's really quite amazing and has set the bar for the level of IS I want in my video. Here's a sample...


All this said, I may eventually get the G100 on the used market or unbundled from the kit lens (I already have two copies).
 

agentlossing

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Hopefully we can get information on the RAW bitrate with electronic shutter soon, I am guessing it has more to do with the sensor than with the shutter mechanism. The 20mp sensor seems to be maybe a little more likely to be 12-bit.
 
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Good points about it being the spiritual successor to the GM5, which I mostly agree with, although the "prism" will prohibit it from fitting in places where the GM1/5 could slide into.

My main criticism is vlogging related, mainly the tightness of the 4k crop and the image stabilization. And vloggers are rightfully criticizing it. I can live with 1080P selfie mode, but I think Panasonic really missed an opportunity. If they included sensor IS and it was good, the vlogosphere would be gaga over this camera even if it was $100 more. It would literally be the only game in town at the pricepoint. Instead, it's just another option in a field of flawed candidates.

Perhaps I've been spoiled by the image stabilization of the Insta 360 One X camera that I have. It's really quite amazing and has set the bar for the level of IS I want in my video. Here's a sample...

All this said, I may eventually get the G100 on the used market or unbundled from the kit lens (I already have two copies).
On size
Agreed that the shape of the G100 is less pocketable than the GM5. Still, I'll take the added grip size and "pentaprism" to get the much improved EVF.

On 4k Crop
There aren't any action cams with 4/3rds sized sensors. Smaller sensor, less data. Less data, easier to stabilize (both electronically and mechanically.) All competing cameras in this class have a horrible 4k crop with or without stabilization (in the case of the XT-200, there is no 4k stabilization at all.) The G100's 4k crop is far better than the M50's (see below.) The reason for this is probably straight up physics.

From DPReview below are the competitors in this space - Interchangeable Lens Cameras with stabilization and greater than 1" sensor (either a 4/3rds or APS-C sensors) + 1" sensor, fixed lens cameras because someone will inevitably bring it up (even though 1" sensor cameras compete more closely with cell phones that larger sensor ILCs.)

4K Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)


EIS Off: 1.26x
EIS Std: 1.37x
EIS High: 1.79x

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

IS Off: 1.55x
IS Std: 1.73x
IS High: 2.22x

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

No Image Stabilization of any kind (digital gimball) available in 4k: so 1.00x

"Digital Gimbal differs from conventional electronic stabilization by using the camera's gyro sensor to smooth out exceptionally shaky video. This feature is only for Full HD because there is a decent-sized crop from the total sensor area, but it works pretty well, as you'll see in the video section of the review. Note that only a few lenses are compatible with the digital gimbal feature at this time: the XC 15-45mm, XC 16-50mm, XF 16mm F2.8 and XF 18mm F2."

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.08
IS Std: 1.08
IS High: 1.19

Canon G7 mk III (1"sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

1080p Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)


EIS Off: 1.00x
EIS Std: 1.09x
EIS High: 1.43x

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

No data published by DPReview just a mention about how bad the 1080p crop is, anyone care to find it?

"Digital gimbal is a powerful electronic image stabilization system that works at 1080/30p and below, and is designed for situations with extreme shake, like when you're walking. There's a substantial crop, but the results are really impressive, as you can see below. There's a step down midway near the end of the sequence, which you barely notice with the gimbal effect on. Something else worth a mention in this demo is some noticeable rolling shutter. The X-T200 has a regular digital image stabilization mode that can be used for 4K, but we wouldn't recommend it due to the very noticeable 'jello' distortion."

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.00x
IS High: 1.09x

Canon G7 mk III (1"sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

So when it comes to cropping video, strangely enough, the G100 is actually better than the competition in 4k, and on par in 1080p. I just don't get the outrage considering the cost, size, competition and capabilities of the G100. The G100's IQ is really good. It's flexible, and improved upon from the GF10 and GM5 in every way. I think consumers are so spoiled that when they're given the gold option, they complain that it's not platinum but for the price of silver. Go figure.
 

RS86

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On size
Agreed that the shape of the G100 is less pocketable than the GM5. Still, I'll take the added grip size and "pentaprism" to get the much improved EVF.

On 4k Crop
There aren't any action cams with 4/3rds sized sensors. Smaller sensor, less data. Less data, easier to stabilize (both electronically and mechanically.) All competing cameras in this class have a horrible 4k crop with or without stabilization (in the case of the XT-200, there is no 4k stabilization at all.) The G100's 4k crop is far better than the M50's (see below.) The reason for this is probably straight up physics.

From DPReview below are the competitors in this space - Interchangeable Lens Cameras with stabilization and greater than 1" sensor (either a 4/3rds or APS-C sensors) + 1" sensor, fixed lens cameras because someone will inevitably bring it up (even though 1" sensor cameras compete more closely with cell phones that larger sensor ILCs.)

4K Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)


EIS Off: 1.26x
EIS Std: 1.37x
EIS High: 1.79x

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

IS Off: 1.55x
IS Std: 1.73x
IS High: 2.22x

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

No Image Stabilization of any kind (digital gimball) available in 4k: so 1.00x

"Digital Gimbal differs from conventional electronic stabilization by using the camera's gyro sensor to smooth out exceptionally shaky video. This feature is only for Full HD because there is a decent-sized crop from the total sensor area, but it works pretty well, as you'll see in the video section of the review. Note that only a few lenses are compatible with the digital gimbal feature at this time: the XC 15-45mm, XC 16-50mm, XF 16mm F2.8 and XF 18mm F2."

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.08
IS Std: 1.08
IS High: 1.19

Canon G7 mk III (1"sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

1080p Crop vs full width

Panasonic G100 (4/3 sensor, ILC)


EIS Off: 1.00x
EIS Std: 1.09x
EIS High: 1.43x

Canon EOS M50 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

Fujifilm XT-200 (APS-C sensor, ILC)

No data published by DPReview just a mention about how bad the 1080p crop is, anyone care to find it?

"Digital gimbal is a powerful electronic image stabilization system that works at 1080/30p and below, and is designed for situations with extreme shake, like when you're walking. There's a substantial crop, but the results are really impressive, as you can see below. There's a step down midway near the end of the sequence, which you barely notice with the gimbal effect on. Something else worth a mention in this demo is some noticeable rolling shutter. The X-T200 has a regular digital image stabilization mode that can be used for 4K, but we wouldn't recommend it due to the very noticeable 'jello' distortion."

Sony ZV-1 (1" sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.00x
IS High: 1.09x

Canon G7 mk III (1"sensor, fixed lens)

IS Off: 1.00x
IS Std: 1.11x
IS High: 1.43x

So when it comes to cropping video, strangely enough, the G100 is actually better than the competition in 4k, and on par in 1080p. I just don't get the outrage considering the cost, size, competition and capabilities of the G100. The G100's IQ is really good. It's flexible, and improved upon from the GF10 and GM5 in every way. I think consumers are so spoiled that when they're given the gold option, they complain that it's not platinum but for the price of silver. Go figure.
What about compared to E-M10 III 4K? That camera has IBIS and should not be very much bigger if the E-M10 II is almost same size.

It's really baffling how they could not fit IBIS there.
 
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What about compared to E-M10 III 4K? That camera has IBIS and should not be very much bigger if the E-M10 II is almost same size.

It's really baffling how they could not fit IBIS there.
My guess is that IBIS question had cost factored in heavily (as well as weight and size.)

Panasonic probably wanted to hit the G100 debut price with kit lens of $650-$700 USD estimating that the street price of the Canon M50 would be around where it is now at $647 with kit lens. The street price of the G100 will be $499 - $599 in 6 months (Black Friday at least.) So Panasonic chose $647 USD with kit lens.

Now the EM10 mkII debuted at $799 with kit lens with Olympus knowing they were on the ropes and needed to price aggressively. After Olympus exit camera biz announcement the street price is $499 - $599 USD. A bargain if someone can live with Olympus' uncertain future.
 
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agentlossing

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It's really baffling how they could not fit IBIS there.
No, it's not. We need to wait for truly accurate comparisons online, but the actual width of the body from lens mount to back, not including articulating screen, looks pretty small, and the second reason is the one that everyone should expect for a videocentric cam, that's heat dissipation issues. If Panny could have just thrown in their 20MP 1/4000 IBIS unit that's in nearly every camera now, believe me, they would have. It doesn't take R&D to drag and drop that shutter/sensor mechanism, whereas you know they spent R&D money fitting the 20MP sensor with the electronic first-curtain shutter from the GM/GF lines.
 

RS86

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My guess is that IBIS question had cost factored in heavily (as well as weight and size.)

Panasonic probably wanted to hit the G100 debut price with kit lens of $650-$700 USD estimating that the street price of the Canon M50 would be around where it is now at $647 with kit lens. The street price of the G100 will be $499 - $599 in 6 months (Black Friday at least.) So Panasonic chose $647 USD with kit lens.

Now the EM10 mkII debuted at $799 with kit lens with Olympus knowing they were on the ropes and needed to price aggressively. After Olympus exit camera biz announcement the street price is $499 - $599 USD. A bargain if someone can live with Olympus' uncertain future.
The cost aspect does make sense. I meant a comparison with E-M10 III 4K crop factor etc. like you listed above.

E-M10 III is 1 % taller, 2 % wider and 6 % thicker (because of a bigger grip like G-100 also has) than E-M10 II. It has 4K video and IBIS and 1/4000 mechanical shutter.

This is why I think the lack of IBIS is baffling.

Screen Shot 06-29-20 at 08.38 PM G100 E-M10III.PNG
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 

John M Flores

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My guess is that IBIS question had cost factored in heavily (as well as weight and size.)

Panasonic probably wanted to hit the G100 debut price with kit lens of $650-$700 USD estimating that the street price of the Canon M50 would be around where it is now at $647 with kit lens. The street price of the G100 will be $499 - $599 in 6 months (Black Friday at least.) So Panasonic chose $647 USD with kit lens.

Now the EM10 mkII debuted at $799 with kit lens with Olympus knowing they were on the ropes and needed to price aggressively. After Olympus exit camera biz announcement the street price is $499 - $599 USD. A bargain if someone can live with Olympus' uncertain future.
No, it's not. We need to wait for truly accurate comparisons online, but the actual width of the body from lens mount to back, not including articulating screen, looks pretty small, and the second reason is the one that everyone should expect for a videocentric cam, that's heat dissipation issues. If Panny could have just thrown in their 20MP 1/4000 IBIS unit that's in nearly every camera now, believe me, they would have. It doesn't take R&D to drag and drop that shutter/sensor mechanism, whereas you know they spent R&D money fitting the 20MP sensor with the electronic first-curtain shutter from the GM/GF lines.
The cost aspect does make sense. I meant a comparison with E-M10 III 4K crop factor etc. like you listed above.

E-M10 III is 1 % taller, 2 % wider and 6 % thicker (because of a bigger grip like G-100 also has) than E-M10 II. It has 4K video and IBIS and 1/4000 mechanical shutter.

This is why I think the lack of IBIS is baffling.

View attachment 832668
This is more about the pricepoint that they wanted to hit, not the size. Remember, if they wanted to or could include IBIS at this pricepoint, they could have done that, even if they had to increase the size of the body incrementally to accomodate it.

My contention is that the pricepoint is wrong. Include IBIS and let the price rise accordingly and you'd have a vlogger's dream. Adding IBIS would also address the other main criticism of the camera - the selfie crop factor. With IBIS, the selfie crop factor goes down because you don't need to oversample the shot for EIS.

Right now, the argument is, "Do I get the Sony or the Lumix? Both are flawed. Which flaws can I live with?"

The argument could have been, "The Sony is cheaper but the Lumix is much better and worth the added cost."
 

agentlossing

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This is more about the pricepoint that they wanted to hit, not the size. Remember, if they wanted to or could include IBIS at this pricepoint, they could have done that, even if they had to increase the size of the body incrementally to accomodate it.
We can speculate, but I think every Panasonic with IBIS is "deeper" than this camera, and I do know that IBIS units need additional space in which to operate. That's why the Ricoh GR III is unable to do pixel-shift stabilization or do more than four stops of stabilization, according to Ricoh - there is limited space in that small body for the IBIS to do its thing. Though I completely agree that price was also a factor.
 
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This is more about the pricepoint that they wanted to hit, not the size. Remember, if they wanted to or could include IBIS at this pricepoint, they could have done that, even if they had to increase the size of the body incrementally to accomodate it.

My contention is that the pricepoint is wrong. Include IBIS and let the price rise accordingly and you'd have a vlogger's dream. Adding IBIS would also address the other main criticism of the camera - the selfie crop factor. With IBIS, the selfie crop factor goes down because you don't need to oversample the shot for EIS.

Right now, the argument is, "Do I get the Sony or the Lumix? Both are flawed. Which flaws can I live with?"

The argument could have been, "The Sony is cheaper but the Lumix is much better and worth the added cost."
I think this is a reasonable take (outside of comparing launch pricing of a new camera to street pricing of an older camera.) Consumers will do that too, so fair enough. I can't imagine the difficulty in hitting endpoints for so many different types of buyer. I'd say the marketing department boned the launch by focusing so much on vlogging only and less on the fact that they just presented a huge update to the lifestyle oriented GX850/880/GF10, making it into a very capable entry level hybrid camera for travelling and also vlogging.

rant (this is not aimed at you John M Flores, it's just a rant)
The issue I have here is that vloggers as a whole post a whole lot more "reviews" that are most folks primary source for information (YouTube) and thus control the narrative. From a photography perspective, the G100 is a sound camera at a good price that is capable of great results that can also shoot the kind of video most starting vloggers need. I don't believe pro-vloggers were bamboozled by Panasonic but instead live in a constant state of trying to generate clicks by sensationalizing their opinions.

If anyone has the expectation is that Panasonic should cannibalize it's mid-range products (G95/GX9) by adding all the features of those cameras and selling it for $500 (just because you can buy their last generation G85 (which is less advanced) for that price) they're both crazy and want Panasonic to follow Olympus to the grave. Reality is, it's the consumer's choice to pick an older mid-range camera vs. a new entry level camera and try to use it for the same thing. Many people do the same when buying a used nicer car vs. a new average car.

Trust me, even if this camera had IBIS, there would be a slew of vloggers trying to get clicks by claiming the lack of 10 bit, or a different codec, or longer than 30 minute recording, totally spoils this product. It doesn't. To add to that, they've trained their audiences to react the same way in comment sections and internet forums. Despite the competition also having the same pricing, features, and packaging issues. Facts are ignored in favor of whatever confirms bias and generates clicks.

No wonder why it's doubly hard for camera manufacturers to stay in business. The market isn't educated enough to understand what they really need vs. a spec sheet. While those informing them (vloggers) teach their audiences to be just as falsely outraged for features and software consumers will rarely use and that they clearly don't want to pay for.
/rant
 
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John M Flores

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We can speculate, but I think every Panasonic with IBIS is "deeper" than this camera, and I do know that IBIS units need additional space in which to operate. That's why the Ricoh GR III is unable to do pixel-shift stabilization or do more than four stops of stabilization, according to Ricoh - there is limited space in that small body for the IBIS to do its thing. Though I completely agree that price was also a factor.
But the depth of the camera is a variable not a hard point in the design process. It's not like they had a warehouse full of camera body shells or a factory full of tooling that they had to design to. If they wanted to incorporate IBIS and that meant increasing the thickness of the camera by a couple of mm, then they would have done that.

It's not the camera size that dictated the lack IBIS, it's the desired pricepoint.
 

John M Flores

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I think this is a reasonable take (outside of comparing launch pricing of a new camera to street pricing of an older camera.) Consumers will do that too, so fair enough. I can't imagine the difficulty in hitting endpoints for so many different types of buyer. I'd say the marketing department boned the launch by focusing so much on vlogging only and less on the fact that they just presented a huge update to the lifestyle oriented GX850/880/GF10, making it into a very capable entry level hybrid camera for travelling and also vlogging.

rant (this is not aimed at you John M Flores, it's just a rant)
The issue I have here is that vloggers as a whole post a whole lot more "reviews" that are most folks primary source for information (YouTube) and thus control the narrative. From a photography perspective, the G100 is a sound camera at a good price that is capable of great results that can also shoot the kind of video most starting vloggers need. I don't believe pro-vloggers were bamboozled by Panasonic but instead live in a constant state of trying to generate clicks by sensationalizing their opinions.

If anyone has the expectation is that Panasonic should cannibalize it's mid-range products (G95/GX9) by adding all the features of those cameras and selling it for $500 (just because you can buy their last generation G85 (which is less advanced) for that price) they're both crazy and want Panasonic to follow Olympus to the grave. Reality is, it's the consumer's choice to pick an older mid-range camera vs. a new entry level camera and try to use it for the same thing. Many people do the same when buying a used nicer car vs. a new average car.

Trust me, even if this camera had IBIS, there would be a slew of vloggers trying to get clicks by claiming the lack of 10 bit, or a different codec, or longer than 30 minute recording, totally spoils this product. It doesn't. To add to that, they've trained their audiences to react the same way in comment sections and internet forums. Despite the competition also having the same pricing, features, and packaging issues. Facts are ignored in favor of whatever confirms bias and generates clicks.

No wonder why it's doubly hard for camera manufacturers to stay in business. The market isn't educated enough to understand what they really need vs. a spec sheet. While those informing them (vloggers) teach their audiences to be just as falsely outraged for features and software consumers will rarely use and that they clearly don't want to pay for.
/rant
You make some valid points about YouTube's hot take culture, but I'm actually talking about the needs and desires of non-tech vloggers that have vlogs about bicycle riding, traveling, crushing various objects in a hydraulic press, and myriad other things. IBIS in a camera like this would have been great. I would have pre-ordered.

Part of what's happening here in this forum (and with nearly every camera launch) is that people evaluate a new camera based on their needs and draw conclusions from that. It's natural to do that. But many here aren't in this camera's target market. I've been to enough press intros and seen enough embargoed press releases to know that product marketing departments go to great lengths to identify their target audience, their perceived needs, and try to design a product to meet those perceived needs at a pricepoint that fits in their product portfolio.

That said, it's interesting to read the comparisons to the GM5, a camera that was much admired but not much purchased new. Often, when a product that doesn't sell well new but becomes a cult classic in the used market, it's often because the new price was considered too high.
 

PakkyT

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but I'm actually talking about the needs and desires of non-tech vloggers that have vlogs about bicycle riding, traveling, crushing various objects in a hydraulic press, and myriad other things. IBIS in a camera like this would have been great. I would have pre-ordered.
I have to ask, since I know nothing of this world, but what you are talking about, aren't GoPros up to the task? I think their image stabilization is mostly digital (?) but from what I have seen looks great and for blogging purposes does it really matter if you lose a bit of resolution to support that digital cropping? Plug they are tiny, they have a form factor and a ton of accessories that make them ideal for mounting on just about anything for bike riding, traveling, etc., the newest ones I think are water proof without the housing (?), etc.

Anyway, wondering why some of these "action" or "sports" cameras might not be simply a better form factor than a more traditional camera body for these types of videos.
 
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