So - is hand held hi res dead?

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by pdk42, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    As the dust settles on the E M1 ii launch, I've been wondering if all the chat and rumours of hand held hi res are off the mark. Certainly there was no mention of it on the press launch, just information about fancy new processing to remove artefacts caused by slight subject movement (russling leaves etc I assume).

    I guess it's possible that it comes later via firmware, but OTOH there doesn't seem to be any hardware on the camera that might make it possible. No global shutter, no on-sensor buffer, no MEMS/Geo membrane.

    I'm thinking that it won't happen.
  2. Speedliner

    Speedliner Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Mar 2, 2015
    Southern NJ, USA
    I'd guess that it is still intended, but wasn't mounted because it is still facing technical challenges, so why raise expectations. It may never arrive, who knows. It seems like a very technically challenging thing to do and could easily be defeated by technique...or a breeze for that matter.

    Imwouldnt be surprised if there is more wobble in me than the technology could handle. I hope they figure it out, but I won't be surprised or disappointed if they don't.

    So to answer your idea

    I just hope they really nail the features that were announced and hit the ball out of the park. HH hi-res can come later.
  3. MRM

    MRM Mu-43 Regular

    Jun 9, 2013
    Seattle, WA
    In my opinion hand held hi res was always going to be a gimmick at least the hand held part. When your shooting any camera at 80 MP you need more stability then a 16 MP camera to get the most out of the pixels. Even full frame cameras with high MP are more demanding of technique and need higher shutter speeds for absolute sharpness. Hi res will always be better on a sturdy tripod to take full advantage of it. I have even found that under 1/500 of a second with Olympus top lenses that a tripod is better to maximize how sharp the photos are. It's a very slight difference on 16 mp cameras but would be more noticeable on 80 MP. Now Hand held hi res could improve color accuracy and possibly dynamic range but I'm skeptical about it being able to produce really sharp photos. Good thing 16 or 20 MP is good enough for almost all prints I will ever do.
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  4. mcasan

    mcasan Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 26, 2014
    It ain't over till the fat lady sings. What we heard was the pre release announcement of the camera. There will a formal release some time this fall when we will hear about list prices, availability/shipping dates, and any new goodies that Olympus decided not to talk about at Photokina.

    It ain't over till (or until) the fat lady sings is a colloquialism and has been classified as a proverb. It means that one should not presume to know the outcome of an event which is still in progress. More specifically, the phrase is used when a situation is (or appears to be) nearing its conclusion. It cautions against assuming that the current state of an event is irreversible and clearly determines how or when the event will end. The phrase is most commonly used in association with organized competitions, particularly sports.

    The phrase is generally understood to be referencing the stereotypically overweight sopranos of the opera. The imagery of Richard Wagner's opera cycle Der Ring des Nibelungen and its last part, Götterdämmerung, is typically the one used in depictions accompanying reference to the phrase. The "fat lady" is the valkyrie Brünnhilde, who is traditionally presented as a very buxom lady with horned helmet, spear and round shield (although Amalie Materna played Brünnhilde during Wagner's lifetime (1876) with a winged helmet). Her aria lasts almost twenty minutes and leads directly to the end of the whole Ring Cycle.[1] As Götterdämmerung is about the end of the world (or at least the world of the Norse gods), in a very significant way "it is [all] over when the fat lady sings."
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  5. pake

    pake Mu-43 All-Pro Subscribing Member

    Oct 14, 2010
    I'm sure it will come. Perhaps it's a crippled version in the E-M1II when it finally comes out on the market but the next mk3 (E-M5 or E-M1) will definitely have it. Olympus still has several (~6?) months to fine tune the algorithms to make it work before the shipping begins. A lot can happen in that time.
  6. astrostl

    astrostl Mu-43 Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    Oct 4, 2014
    St. Louis, MO
    Justin Honold
    If I were betting, I'd bet on it working - but only with dual IS, as someone around here already postulated.
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  7. m43happy

    m43happy Mu-43 Top Veteran

    Feb 18, 2012
    No. It'll probably get added via firmware.
  8. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 26, 2014
    I never thought it was even possible. Calculate the stability needed to maintain aim to 1/2 a pixel and you will see you need a good tripod.
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  9. phigmov

    phigmov Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Apr 4, 2010
    For a moment I wondered if you might be talking about personal drones that followed you around and took pictures autonomously and at your direction :)
  10. piggsy

    piggsy Mu-43 All-Pro

    I thought it always sounded like a free lunch, the bit where you still actually need to do lowest iso exposures with 1/2 pixel accuracy between them isn't a problem that can be magicked away. There is very little that is going to happen that wouldn't also happen from just taking the reasonable maximum number of similar exposures of the same scene and doing an average of them.
  11. robcee

    robcee Mu-43 Veteran

    Jan 10, 2016
    New Brunswick, Canada
    Rob Campbell
    I maintain ever skeptical of the hand-held, hi-res shooting mode. I don't think we'll see it. And again, why would you want it? As @MRM@MRM says, hand-holding a hi-res full frame camera was always tricky and you got best results using a tripod. I also find I get crisper shots shooting my Oly on a tripod without IS. I see no reason that would be any different with the new camera.

    source: former Nikon D800 shooter.
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  12. Rick F

    Rick F Mu-43 Regular

    Jul 5, 2015
    I also feel the HH hopes rather optimistic when considering the practicalities of the camera trying to take the shots quick enough to avoid critical movement during the exposure.
    The previous comments about technique being more important reminded me of a comment made by a friend who had a Sony A7R. He said it shows up every mistake you make!
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  13. ThorEgil

    ThorEgil Mu-43 Regular

    Aug 22, 2012
  14. Hypilein

    Hypilein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 18, 2015
    Well, as I understand it, even landscape shots are currently very prone to artifacts from slight movements, so even if you still set the camera on a tripod increasing the speed the whole process takes might open it up to more situations.
  15. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    Doesn't sound too hopeful to me:
    As an aside - why do these journalists when asking about noise and DR never ask the obvious follow-on question: "do these claims you're making apply to raw files or just jpegs?". I mean it's an important and obvious question. Are these journos just jpeg-shooting amateurs ;)
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
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  16. ripgriffith

    ripgriffith Mu-43 Regular

    May 28, 2015
    I guess it's time for the rest of us to weigh in with how much we know about opera and how little it relates to the topic at hand. After all, isn't it our task to fill the pages with meaningless trivia?
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  17. TheMenWhoDrawSheeps

    TheMenWhoDrawSheeps Mu-43 Veteran

    Jun 15, 2016
    @MRM@MRM, Growlriger.

    you are really underestimating it guys. i was actually doing handheld "high res" shots with a 7 year old camera about 3 years ago.
    it´s a simle feature in photoshop, which one apply to quadriple the resolution.
    so thats how it´s done:

    you take 20 shots handheld of the same subject, from the same spot - you shouldn´t worry about camera shakes or slight movements - it´s even preffered if you have some.

    start photoshop, and load all photos in one file, let photoshop allign them propperly, and crop to your hearts content.

    set first layer to 5% oppacity, second to 10% and so on until last layer at 100%.

    you got your picture. is it sharper? - yes - since you have 20 slightly different files wich pass on some information to the final image, you`ll definetely get more detailed picture with quadripled resolution.
    is it comparable to 50MP MF file shot with Rodenstock lens? - no it sure isn´t.
    do we need sharper lenses for it to work better? - either no - we work with a 20mp sensor, so no matter how sharp lens might be - they won´t outresolve the sensor - and some olympus lenses are already razor sharp.

    now with current technology able to read out pictures 60 times a second in raw - i wouldn´t worry to much - even with the same method -in theory, em-1ii can already read out 20 pictures in 1/3rd of a second - so there will be only so much motion blurr to expect and to eliminate. And we aren´t talking about 20 pictures, but merely 8 - so it would be down to approx. 1/8th of a second.

    found a link it´s called superresolution
    A Practical Guide to Creating Superresolution Photos with Photoshop
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
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  18. tkbslc

    tkbslc Mu-43 Legend

    Wouldn't good OIS allow for handheld high res?
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  19. piggsy

    piggsy Mu-43 All-Pro

    Well, without just making it the same as averaging exposures that you could do on your own, at 20mp m4/3 you're gonna need stabilisation that can react to and compensate for what, 1.5-2 microns of movement? And do that relative to the first exposure, for the entire duration of the set of shots. This is not something I would count on seeing anytime soon.

    ed - Oh and, also needs to hold it absolutely still in an axis that isn't even compensated for by anything that exists right now.

    ed 2- how many orders of magnitude do you think we are from even being able to instantly hold 0.1mm reliably, let alone 0.0015mm?
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016