Shutter Shock still a problem on E-P5

[Yohan Pamudji]

For those not educated about Shutter Shock, how do you tell the difference between a blurry image and Shutter Shock??

I'm still trying to learn all the ins and outs of my E-P5, and once in a while I have (what looks to me) a blurry image.

taz,

I saw one of the image posts you made a while back I think in the 75mm f/1.8 image thread and noticed some blurriness but didn't have access to the EXIF or the full image so I wasn't sure if it was shutter shock or not. PM me if you're interested and we can discuss the details further.

In general it's difficult to know for sure for any given real world shot if it's shutter shock or just camera shake except if you know that you were paying attention to your handholding technique at the time and the shutter speed is faster than the reciprocal rule. Indications that it could be shutter shock are unsharpness varying from vague blurriness to outright double lines at shutter speeds you would expect to be able to handhold easily, for instance 1/200 with a less than 100mm lens.

Shutter shock occurs in the direction of shutter movement. So in landscape orientation it's an up and down motion, while in portrait it's a left and right motion. So if you're shooting portrait and have a subject with lots of vertical lines, those lines will look blurry or doubled in the left-right axis.

Thus the easiest way to test is to shoot a subject with lots of distinct lines, such as vertical lines in portrait orientation, taking shots at various shutter speeds to see if there's a problem in the danger area. The E-P5 seems to share the same danger zone as the E-M1 from 1/80 to 1/250. What I did was compare shots at 1/200 and 1/400. If 1/200 is noticeably blurrier than 1/400 then shutter shock is a distinct possibility.

There's some debate over whether testing with strobes is valid or not because of the short duration of the strobe lights, so I tested in natural light outside. If you have continuous lights I'm sure those would work just as well.

 

[taz98spin]

taz,

I saw one of the image posts you made a while back I think in the 75mm f/1.8 image thread and noticed some blurriness but didn't have access to the EXIF or the full image so I wasn't sure if it was shutter shock or not. PM me if you're interested and we can discuss the details further.

In general it's difficult to know for sure for any given real world shot if it's shutter shock or just camera shake except if you know that you were paying attention to your handholding technique at the time and the shutter speed is faster than the reciprocal rule. Indications that it could be shutter shock are unsharpness varying from vague blurriness to outright double lines at shutter speeds you would expect to be able to handhold easily, for instance 1/200 with a less than 100mm lens.

Shutter shock occurs in the direction of shutter movement. So in landscape orientation it's an up and down motion, while in portrait it's a left and right motion. So if you're shooting portrait and have a subject with lots of vertical lines, those lines will look blurry or doubled in the left-right axis.

Thus the easiest way to test is to shoot a subject with lots of distinct lines, such as vertical lines in portrait orientation, taking shots at various shutter speeds to see if there's a problem in the danger area. The E-P5 seems to share the same danger zone as the E-M1 from 1/80 to 1/250. What I did was compare shots at 1/200 and 1/400. If 1/200 is noticeably blurrier than 1/400 then shutter shock is a distinct possibility.

There's some debate over whether testing with strobes is valid or not because of the short duration of the strobe lights, so I tested in natural light outside. If you have continuous lights I'm sure those would work just as well.

Yes, the image I posted in the 75/1.8 thread had me wonder if it was my carelessness or shutter shock.
I will PM you the direct link to the full size image.

Thank you!!

 

[FlyPenFly]

If it makes you guys feel any better, the Sony A7 and A7R also show shutter shock, it's especially bad on the A7R. The NEX - 5N also occasionally had an issue and I'm sure all the other cameras as well.

For critical shots, I try to make sure I take a couple of exposures for safety.

 

[rbelyell]

I wish I could say the same about turning off IBIS fixing the issue for me. I tried every permutation I could think of combining settings for IBIS, short lag, antishock, handholding technique (varying tightness of grip, EVF vs. rear screen), but nothing completely eliminated the problem on the E-M1s I tried except for the tripod head. Obviously handholding with a multi-pound tripod head attached all the time is a non-starter so I regrettably returned the cameras.

This difference in experience could be down to the fact that you're talking about an E-PL5 and we're talking about E-P5 and E-M1. The E-PL5 has a very different IBIS mechanism than the 5-way systems in the E-P5 and E-M1, thus it's understandable if turning IBIS off could produce different results for your case vs. ours. I believe there's something to be said for turning off IBIS when not needed on the older 2-axis IBIS systems like the E-PL5. But that wisdom doesn't seem to carry over to the newer 5-axis IBIS cameras.

oh, i didnt realize either that the problem was different on the ep5 or that it was an issue on the em1. that is a real bummer. i only understood the ep5 issue as corrolary to the epl5, even though the ibis systems were different, and hadnt seen it also plauged the om line. are others finding there is no solution to this on the ep5 and om1?

 

[rfortson]

It's a shame people are having problems. I'm loving my E-P5. I got one blurry image early on, but I believe it was focus issue. The blurring wasn't linear so pretty sure it was me.

I'll also add that pretty much every camera I've owned had some area where it could fail. I finally quit looking for them, and as long as I get good shots, I don't worry about it. I've been much happier. Easier said than done, though, especially when you lose a shot because of it.

 

[taz98spin]

Unfortunately while we're not 100% sure, Yohan Pamudji thinks my image from the E-P5 is exhibiting shutter shock as well.

"if you look at her right arm (left side of picture) and the edge of her skirt on that same side you see a double-line on both"

 

[Yohan Pamudji]

Unfortunately while we're not 100% sure, Yohan Pamudji thinks my image from the E-P5 is exhibiting shutter shock as well.

"if you look at her right arm (left side of picture) and the edge of her skirt on that same side you see a double-line on both"

To be completely fair it could be me just seeing what I'm looking for. A test with a grid as a target would probably be more conclusive since it would theoretically show more blur in 1 direction than the other if it's due to shutter shock.

 

[taz98spin]

To be completely fair it could be me just seeing what I'm looking for. A test with a grid as a target would probably be more conclusive since it would theoretically show more blur in 1 direction than the other if it's due to shutter shock.

I see.. I'll test it out once I get home!
Thanks for the help!!

 

[Yohan Pamudji]

If it makes you guys feel any better, the Sony A7 and A7R also show shutter shock, it's especially bad on the A7R. The NEX - 5N also occasionally had an issue and I'm sure all the other cameras as well.

For critical shots, I try to make sure I take a couple of exposures for safety.

That actually makes me feel worse. I'm aware of the A7r shutter shock complaints too, and it also happens on my E-M5 (although it's completely gone with 1/8 antishock). I had high hopes of moving completely from DSLR to mirrorless even for gigs, but at this rate it'll never happen. Are we really paying the price for how small and light these cameras are, or is there something that could be done to prevent the problem in future models? Considering that Olympus don't think this issue exists I'm not holding my breath.

oh, i didnt realize either that the problem was different on the ep5 or that it was an issue on the em1. that is a real bummer. i only understood the ep5 issue as corrolary to the epl5, even though the ibis systems were different, and hadnt seen it also plauged the om line. are others finding there is no solution to this on the ep5 and om1?

As I mentioned above it also happens on the E-M5 although only around 1/80 - 1/125. In my case it's completely cured by using 1/8 antishock, and since the danger zone is so small I don't mind having to remember to switch on antishock too much. It would be nice if I didn't but it's not a show stopper like it is on the E-M1 where the range of 1/80 - 1/250 is huge and right in the sweet spot of most of my shooting scenarios.

I've seen the E-PM2 shutter shock discussions and it seems there that turning IBIS off helps, so it makes sense that this solves it for the E-PL5 which has a similar IBIS mechanism.

Looks like I might have to skip any upgrades until they finally perfect that global electronic shutter.

 

[rbelyell]

leaf shutters is a possible answer. i never get shock from my x100 or rx1. never had it on the ep2 either--what kinda shutter was that?

 

[Yohan Pamudji]

leaf shutters is a possible answer. i never get shock from my x100 or rx1. never had it on the ep2 either--what kinda shutter was that?

Leaf shutters are in the lens not the body, so not a solution for m4/3. Besides, leaf shutters carry their own set of minuses such as slower max shutter speeds at large apertures.

Global electronic shutter would be the way to go if they ever manage to achieve it--completely silent, speeds as fast as light (ok maybe not quite, but definitely not limited by mechanical limitations of a physical shutter), no shutter shock, no jelly effect. One can dream.

E-P2 has a regular focal plane shutter. It'd be interesting to go back and try to find where in the m4/3 camera progression shutter shock started. I didn't experience it on the E-P1 and E-P3, although it could be I just didn't know what I was looking at, or the kit lens and various other lenses I had at the time were soft enough to mask any shock. Who knows.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Maybe we'll go back to fabric curtain shutters? I bet that'll dampen vibration from shock!

 

[FlyPenFly]

After a lot of shooting at 1/125 handheld, here's what I found:

The largest factor is the lens. Prime lenses like my 45mm F1.8 and 17mm F1.8 seem to exhibit the least amount of shutter shock. Collapsible lenses like the panasonic 12-32mm seem to exhibit the most.

IBIS and 1/8 anti-shock made no difference in my testing on the E-P5 and E-M1. Neither improved or worsened the incidence and magnitude of shutter shock.

When shooting of ten frames on multiple sets each, the 45mm and 17mm 1.8 exhibited shutter shock about once out of every ten shots no matter if IBIS was on or off or anti-shock was on or off, the P12-32 exhibited two or three times at 32mm regardless of IBIS or anti-shock settings. The E-M1 exhibited almost no shutter shock on the prime lenses but did exhibit only once when shot at 32mm with the P12-32 no matter the settings for IBIS or AS.

 

[pdk42]

That's very interesting - I've done my testing mostly with the 17, 25 & 45 and found it very hard to reproduce. If the incidence is <10%, then I can see I need to do a lot more shooting and take a statistical view.

 

[Chris5107]

Has it been settled or is there a consensus of what shutter speed ranges are most likely to cause shutter shock? Or conversely, what range of shutter speeds are needed to avoid shutter shock.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I think it's visible up to 1/250 then the shutter becomes too fast usually to capture the shock.

As to how low it can show, I'm not sure.

 

[Yohan Pamudji]

FlyPenFly,

Thanks for sharing your results. I would kill to get results like that on an E-M1. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum--10 out of 10 shots have shutter shock in the danger zone. Did you evaluate at the fit-to-screen level or did you go to 100% zoom?

There's also Release Lag Time that can be set to Short that some have claimed to help them. Don't know if you want to bother going back and testing with that setting on Short, but FYI just in case.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I zoomed in about 5x to 10x on the camera itself. I focused on the back label of a bottle of nutella. It was pretty obvious which were crisp defined lines and which were doubling.

Honestly, if I had shutter shock in 10/10, I would return the camera. It sounds like there is a loose part or some harmonic structural rigidity problem on the sensor mount. I imagine even something like an improperly torqued screw near the sensor would induce shutter shock.

 

[Yohan Pamudji]

I zoomed in about 5x to 10x on the camera itself. I focused on the back label of a bottle of nutella. It was pretty obvious which were crisp defined lines and which were doubling.

Honestly, if I had shutter shock in 10/10, I would return the camera. It sounds like there is a loose part or some harmonic structural rigidity problem on the sensor mount. I imagine even something like an improperly torqued screw near the sensor would induce shutter shock.

It's posts like yours that tempt me to try again on another E-M1. But I've already been burned twice and am not looking forward to receiving another problematic camera. Still, that nagging feeling that I could eventually get a good one if I just tried again... It's the hope that kills you.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Yeah, I just purchased mine through the Refurb Factory store on Get Olympus on one of their 20% sales and then purchased their 2 year warranty so I was only out about $1050 with a longer than factory warranty. I'm convinced these are more thoroughly checked than the ones shipped from china and go through several shipping pallets and warehouses before it gets to you.