Short tele (45/60mm) usable without stabilization?

JanW

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I was wondering what the best macro option would be in my situation.
At the moment I'm building up a m43 kit.
Until now I only had one body that I used for everything but I decided that I would be better off with two:
- a gx800 with 12-32/3.5-5.6, 20mm and macro(tele) as a light portable kit to take with me on nature walks and vacation.
- a larger body with Panasonic 14-42mm II when I need flash and for my 100-300mm. At the moment I have a G5 but after getting the gx800 I want to upgrade to a G80 in the near future.

But first I want a macro lens to complete my light kit. Because of the lack of ibis a wanted to buy a Leica 45mm but these are hard to find used and quite expensive.
With regards to focal length I would prefer the 60mm Olympus and these are easier to find and less expensive.
Would the 60mm be usable as a short telephoto and close-up nature lens without ibis?
For serious macro work I can use the G80 when I get one.
 

JanW

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You may find it hilarious but I didn't find any useful information in that tread about the essence of my question: is a 60mm f2.8 usable without stabilization or will I regret it?
So I have changed the thread title and hope people can share their experiences with unstabilized lenses :)
 

robcee

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important detail that I just blew right past. My online attention span is about the size of a flea's right now, so apologies.

Without IBIS, you might find the 60mm a bit tough to work with handheld at 1:1 macro distances. It's hard enough WITH stabilization in an EM1. The 45 might help you out a bit there. As always, you'll get best results with a tripod and good lighting, but that's obviously not going to work for moving subjects.
 

Hendrik

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Not 1:1 but pretty close. E-M5 II, O60, 1/25 second, f/2.8
Shot with both forearms braced on a heavy table, firm contact with brow ridge. Front element of lens ~5" from focus point.
Exposure tweaks: + Exposure & White Point; - Black Point. These are 100% crops. Only default Lightroom capture sharpening applied.

IBIS on
_H1B7723m43.jpg
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IBIS off

_H1B7724m43.jpg
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It took being really careful about support. I'm not cherry picking, these are consecutive images - and I stopped after the second ;) - I didn't want to press my luck, truth to tell. The second is pretty good but I can see softness. Had I downsized the whole image, the difference would be invisible. It is likely that a kickass sharpening program like Topaz AI would be able to render the sharpness indistinguishable under normal usage. Still, there are the classic options for using an unstabilized macro lens/body combo in challenging lighting: monopod, tripod, flash.
 
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Petrochemist

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Stabilization is a nice extra for any lens, but I've never met one that's not perfectly usable without it!
 

Hendrik

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Would the 60mm be usable as a short telephoto and close-up nature lens without ibis?
One unfortunate thing image stabilization does is allow folk to ignore the finer points of shot discipline. Another way of expressing the idea might be that it enables sloppy shooting.

OTOH, another thing stabilization does, which is invaluable, is that, for handheld shooting, it extends the envelope of the possible into realms that would otherwise be, if not impossible, utterly improbable. The benefits of stabilization scale (roughly) inversely with available light.

For the O60, in well-lit conditions, keeping the shutter speed above 1/250 and training yourself to be a stable shooting platform, there should be little problem while you wait to score a stabilized body. You could regard challenging light as a personal test and attempt to determine where your limits are.
 

phigmov

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Yes, as per previous comment, IS is super-nice to have and will give hand-held shot opportunities not normally available + improve keeper rate. However, if you -
* Keep shutter speed high where possible (used to be roughly 1/focal-length as a minimum - why its generally easier to handhold at slow speeds with a wide-angle than a normal/tele or zoom)
* Use a flash
* Burst shoot (1 in 5 is probably in focus if you rock backwards/forwards/up/down etc)

I've got great macro with my old G3 and adapted Kiron 105mm (& 50mm Om Macro & 55 Micro-Nikkor).

You'll be fine - get out there and shoot :)
 

ac12

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You do NOT need IBIS for maco.
What you REALLY want/need is a tripod, with a 4-way rail.
IBIS is not 3D. What IBIS does NOTHING about is when you rock front/back. For that you need a tripod. Or hope that the Auto Focus tracks as you rock.
The front/back rock is a major factor in macro work, where it is an insignificant factor in non-macro work.
When your subject is 20 feet away, a 1 inch front/back rock makes no difference in the focus of the lens.​
But, when you are less than 9 inches from the subject, 1 inch is a HUGE amount of movement.​

Personally, I CANNOT handhold at macro magnification. I HAVE TO use a tripod.

For general use, a 60mm without IS is just fine. As long as you keep your shutter speed above about 1/125.
 

JanW

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Thanks everyone!
Of course I know how to shoot without Ibis, already did that 25 years ago with my Nikon F3 and 105mm.
But I've gotten used to stabilization and use shutter speeds that are slower than I could use back then.
On the other hand, until now I only had slow zoom lenses so perhaps the difference won't be very noticeable.
I like my new 20mm a lot and don't really miss stabilization on that.
So I'll look out for a 60mm because it is the lens I wanted from the start. I know how to use it and I'll accept that the shutter speeds have to be a bit higher than with a stabilized lens.

Thanks again!
 

ac12

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Thanks everyone!
Of course I know how to shoot without Ibis, already did that 25 years ago with my Nikon F3 and 105mm.
But I've gotten used to stabilization and use shutter speeds that are slower than I could use back then.
On the other hand, until now I only had slow zoom lenses so perhaps the difference won't be very noticeable.
I like my new 20mm a lot and don't really miss stabilization on that.
So I'll look out for a 60mm because it is the lens I wanted from the start. I know how to use it and I'll accept that the shutter speeds have to be a bit higher than with a stabilized lens.

Thanks again!
There is always the option of getting a Panasonic camera with IBIS and put the 60 on it.
I don't shoot Panasonic, so I don't know their lens lineup and what macro lens they have.
I shoot macro so infrequently that I use an old manual Nikon 55mm micro nikkor, which is "good enough" for what little macro that I do.
 

junkyardsparkle

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So I'll look out for a 60mm because it is the lens I wanted from the start. I know how to use it and I'll accept that the shutter speeds have to be a bit higher than with a stabilized lens.
The fact that this lens has very good image quality at f/2.8 might help you a little bit there.
 

robcee

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Thanks everyone!
Of course I know how to shoot without Ibis, already did that 25 years ago with my Nikon F3 and 105mm.
If you’ve still got a manual 105mm F mount lens, you can pick up a Metabones (or other) adapter and get a sweet 210mm equivalent super macro. I use a Nikon 105mm D micro that can take some insane micros (1.5-2X). It requires pretty careful work to get something stable though. Have fun!
 

JanW

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If you’ve still got a manual 105mm F mount lens.....
I don't have it any more. Still hurts....
When I switched to digital photography in 2004 I traded in all of my Nikon gear: F3 with AIS 24/2.8, 35/2.0, 50/1.4, Af-d 105/2.8 macro, AF 200/3.5 ED and Sigma 500mm/7.1
Bought back a compact camera (Olympus C8080) and still had to pay €150 for it. Never heard of sensor sizes...
The guy must have had a good laugh after I left his shop :dash2:
 
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I watched a vlog by Robin Wong in which he was holding a camera with one hand and flash in another. If one were to use single hand to hold and trigger the camera, I guess that IS has to be a big help. {I have no idea what the shutter / flash speeds were.}
 

Petrochemist

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I watched a vlog by Robin Wong in which he was holding a camera with one hand and flash in another. If one were to use single hand to hold and trigger the camera, I guess that IS has to be a big help. {I have no idea what the shutter / flash speeds were.}
Camera movement is hardly ever an issue with flash. While the shutter speed may be 1/250 or slower (some of my older cameras have 1/60 sync) the image is generally just from the duration of the flash 1/3000 is fairly typical.
Some studio flashes can have longer durations but 1/500 is the slowest I know of.

For macro, I find the one per hand way of working (with the flash connected by a TTL cable) works really well for coins & the like. The angle of lighting is readily adjusted, can be made into grazing light & having the flash out at arms reach it doesn't add so much light the TTL can't shut down in time.
The convenience is such that I've often used this approach when a heavily diffused softer light would have been more desirable.
 

robcee

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I don't have it any more. Still hurts....
When I switched to digital photography in 2004 I traded in all of my Nikon gear: F3 with AIS 24/2.8, 35/2.0, 50/1.4, Af-d 105/2.8 macro, AF 200/3.5 ED and Sigma 500mm/7.1
Bought back a compact camera (Olympus C8080) and still had to pay €150 for it. Never heard of sensor sizes...
The guy must have had a good laugh after I left his shop :dash2:
Oof! I feel for you. Those AIS lenses would be great. I have the 50 f1.4 and love it. It's still on my FM2n. :sorry:
 

Holoholo55

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I watched a vlog by Robin Wong in which he was holding a camera with one hand and flash in another. If one were to use single hand to hold and trigger the camera, I guess that IS has to be a big help. {I have no idea what the shutter / flash speeds were.}
I sometimes use the Robin method when shooting macro. The IS really helps while you're framing and focusing. Even though I often use a diffused flash which freezes movement, the IS helps to steady the view so I can see when and where I'm in focus. As you know, that focus plane can be razor thin at macro distances, and my knees aren't too steady. Need all the help I can get. :)

BTW, Robin posted an article on his blog about his development as a photographer through his macro photography. He is a master.
https://robinwong.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-shooting-macro-boosted-my.html
 
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