Shock news! - the GX7 suffers from shutter shock!

Discussion in 'Panasonic Cameras' started by pdk42, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    Well, maybe it's not new news for many - but as a new GX7 owner, it is for me! It seems particularly bad on the 45/1.8 and the 35-100. I'm really glad this thing has an electronic shutter. I think I'll enable this by default.

    Here's an example - both images with the 45mm @ f1.8 and at 1/100s. Left image is the best of three shots with the electronic shutter. Right image is the best of three shots with the mechanical shutter.

    eShutter.JPG
     
  2. HarryS

    HarryS Mu-43 Top Veteran

    948
    Jun 23, 2012
    Midwest, USA
    Those are tiny crops? If so, would it matter in the larger image?
     
  3. agentlossing

    agentlossing Mu-43 Hall of Famer Subscribing Member

    Jun 26, 2013
    Andrew Lossing
    How in heck are we supposed to discern the effect at the size of those - grainy - crops?

    GX1•EP1•GF3•9mmBCL•17mm2.8•30mm2.8
     
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  4. fortwodriver

    fortwodriver Mu-43 Top Veteran

    987
    Nov 15, 2013
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Frank
    But I thought the GX7 has a "partial" shutter... So it doesn't haver to cycle twice? Maybe I'm missing something, but shutter shock blur is directional. Whereas in this case, one image appears to be softer overall, more like mis-focusing...
     
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  5. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    Well, maybe my shot was a bit grainy (although I think it's still fairly obvious). There's a better test done by a poster on dpreview here:

    http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52237265

    You'll see that the e-shutter shots are WAY sharper than any of the others. The blurring using the mechanical shutter is not always manifesting itself as directional - in fact, in the main the shots just look slightly blurred.

    AFAIK, the mechanical shutter on the GX7 isn't "partial" (which I think means uses an electronic first curtain - EFCS). The GM1 has an EFCS, as indeed to most Olys now.
     
  6. DynaSport

    DynaSport Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 5, 2013
    Dan
    From my E-PM1 days, I remember shutter shock being related to IBIS. Is that the case? So, shutter shock happens on pretty much all bodies with IBIS or just some of them? I saw it on my E-PM1 but not so far on my G5. Makes me glad I don't have IBIS sometimes.
     
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  7. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    IBIS may be a factor, but the Sony A7r suffers badly from shutter shock and that doesn't have IBIS.
     
  8. fortwodriver

    fortwodriver Mu-43 Top Veteran

    987
    Nov 15, 2013
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Frank
    Are you using IBIS on a tripod? If the image is blurred overall then it could be IBIS "looking" for vibration that isn't there.

    Yeah, I thought the GX7 had a simpler shutter unit that did away with the dual-cycling.
     
  9. rbelyell

    rbelyell Mu-43 Veteran

    368
    Sep 15, 2013
    Mountains of NY
    i guess he's asking if you had ibis on when you saw this, and if so, have you tried without it? because of this i never use ibis on my epl5, but its of general interest to get this right on this thread.
     
  10. DynaSport

    DynaSport Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 5, 2013
    Dan
    Shutter shock seems like a design flaw to me. I don't understand camera companies releasing cameras with this issue. Not long after I got my E-PM1, I took it to a botanical garden about an hour away from the house, where I spent a very nice day with my wife. I took tons of photos, but when I got home most of them were a bit blurry. I couldn't figure out why. But with the help of people on this site I learned it was shutter shock and also learned about a 'solution' of setting a delay on the shutter. Without this site I doubt I would have ever figured out what the problem was or what to do about it. And I'd still be carrying my Canon around and would have abandoned M43. So, to me shutter shock is a serious issue.
     
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  11. fortwodriver

    fortwodriver Mu-43 Top Veteran

    987
    Nov 15, 2013
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Frank
    In all fairness, the whole shutter shock issue never stopped people from trying to take hand-held shots at 1/30 with Pentax 645s and 6x7 cameras... It was called "mirror bounce" back then.

    But you're right. Although I haven't seen it at all on my E-M1, it's troublesome that it seems to be a design issue that crops up when combining ibis with the double-shutter action required for mirrorless camera. I'm a little perplexed that it hasn't been permanently resolved through a design change, or why companies like Olympus haven't deployed a software update across the board to include the "Zero time" mode they applied to the E-M1 and E-M10.

    Also, I can't remember where I read it but someone, somewhere determined that certain examples of shutter shock were actually caused by the mounted lens rattling slightly during the shutter cycle. So only certain loose-tolerance lenses exhibited the problem at certain shutter speeds.

    It also has me curious about what's coming.
     
  12. DynaSport

    DynaSport Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 5, 2013
    Dan
    I've never used a Pentax 645, but my Canons had mirror lock up for long exposure shots to avoid mirror vibration issues.
     
  13. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Legend Subscribing Member

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    Even DSLRs have mirror-lock up options.

    Which cameras, save perhaps leaf shutter cameras, do not have some kind of shutter shock from mechanical operations?
     
  14. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Legend Subscribing Member

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    The DPR link given earlier in this thread http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52237265 seems to show it is lens related, with the PZ lens rated far worse than the 12-35. That should not be surprising that a cheap, collapsible lens might be impacted from the vibrations of a mechanical shutter.
     
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  15. tino84

    tino84 Mu-43 Veteran

    268
    Dec 29, 2013
    never, and I'm saying NEVER, saw any ShutterShock issue on my gx7. I had e-pl5 that suffered noticeably from SS at certain speeds. I changed mode on my gx7 recently, make it choose the right speed, and I get even sharper images than my previous set..
     
  16. Klorenzo

    Klorenzo Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 10, 2014
    Lorenzo
    Proper "shutter shock" happens for DSLR too even with the mirror locked up (in addition to mirror shock). The bigger mass of the camera dissipate better these vibrations and there is also one less mechanical operation (if the mirror is locked up) so usually it is not recorded in the pictures.

    Linked from this article:

    http://1000wordpics.blogspot.it/2013/10/mirror-slap-versus-shutter-shock.html

    there is an "insane" study of the Pentax K7 shutter shock. The only "fix" they found was adding mass, with a heavy tripod, to the camera. Electronic shutter (full or partial) will completely avoid or reduce the problem (see the NEX EFCS article).

    A better dumped shutter should help but probably is not that easy to make.

    I wonder if the shooter technique, body mass and tight or relaxed grip could have some effect on this.
     
  17. fortwodriver

    fortwodriver Mu-43 Top Veteran

    987
    Nov 15, 2013
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Frank
    I wonder about this too. I see lots of people "manhandling" their cameras severely. I understand that the right-side grip came about to accommodate that kind of holding, but for those of us who came from flat-bodied film SLRs, it was always about cradling the lens and keeping a gentle grip on the right hand side. I admit I've looked at some shutter-shock examples, seen the direction of the blur and wondered if that blur was caused more by tightly (and jarringly) gripping the camera.

    There's also those people who slam down on that shutter button.
     
  18. eteless

    eteless Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 20, 2014
    With most of the film SLR's I'm using the shutter also travels horizontally rather than vertically.

    I would love to see a mirror slap / shutter shock study done on the Pen F though, given it has a rotary shutter and the mirror moves sideways at a million miles an hour.
     
  19. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Legend Subscribing Member

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    The Pen F was around before "100% crops" were available to everyone, so no one every noticed, lol!
     
  20. Steven

    Steven Mu-43 All-Pro

    May 25, 2012
    USA
    That lens is anything but cheap, thus the outrage when the issue originally surfaced when it was kit lens for Gx1.
     
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