Seems like an awful lot of talk about different systems lately

Have you decided to move away from M/43?

  • Yes, getting out while my gear still has value

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • Not getting out completely, but am expanding to hedge my bet

    Votes: 11 8.4%
  • Still using M4/3 as my main gear, but want to try something else

    Votes: 22 16.8%
  • As suggested, I've gone mad. FF is the only option for me!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not me, I will stick with M4/3 until someone pries it from my cold dead hands

    Votes: 91 69.5%
  • My main kit is a different format, but I use M4/3 as my second system

    Votes: 11 8.4%

  • Total voters
    131

BDR-529

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Rather than "invest" how about "sunk money in to..." ?
Any tangible asset has a usefull life and investment made into one must return a profit during that time period even when possible maintenance costs and loan payments are taken into consideration.

Camera can only be an investment for professional photographers who make a living out of their photographs and videos.

For everyone else it's just a cost of a hobby.

The old wisdom about cars is valid for cameras and lenses as well: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"
 

ADemuth

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M4/3 until my lenses give out, or the cost of a replacement body exceeds that of the entry fee of a new system with a couple of primes.
 

BDR-529

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Well the Lumix S5 body is full frame and is smaller than the M43 G9.
Amazingly small Sigma fp is way smaller and lighter than S5. Height is already limited by the physical size of the L-mount ring.

Sigma fp does not have IBIS but Sigma has managed to position it into serious videographer niche. This however renders the size advantage pretty much moot since once you build a huge rig around your FF body and mount it on a tripod, it doesn't really matter how small and light it was.
 

pake

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Amazingly small Sigma fp is way smaller and lighter than S5. Height is already limited by the physical size of the L-mount ring.

Sigma fp does not have IBIS but Sigma has managed to position it into serious videographer niche. This however renders the size advantage pretty much moot since once you build a huge rig around your FF body and mount it on a tripod, it doesn't really matter how small and light it was.
At first I was excited about the Sigma fp but the interest faded as quickly as it came as it was too apparent that it's awful at stills. Horrible AF, basically unusable with flashes, no EVF etc.
 

Mike Wingate

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I am amazed at the time, money and resources that manufacturers put into products that do not meet the demands of the market, or just look wrong. Granted at the start of development, the technology may not be quite there, but..
 

Mike Wingate

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I have been on the Leica forum. the users have great believ in their products and really look down their noses at the other manufacturers L mount offerings. Everyone seems happy, very happy. Owners with 2 M10’s, wondering what they should buy as a daily carry round camera, seem to end up with another M10 with a 40mm lens. Leica lenses don't work as well on the S1 range, plus the bodies are too large. The M5 is below their status. Yes a very upbeat site.
 

BDR-529

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At first I was excited about the Sigma fp but the interest faded as quickly as it came as it was too apparent that it's awful at stills. Horrible AF, basically unusable with flashes, no EVF etc.
It looks like Sigma never decided for whom they made this camera - or why did they make it in the first place.

It was clearly meant to be the ultimate FF hybrid camera for street and travel photographers. It's amazingly small and light even when compared to compact m4/3 cameras. Without lens Sigma fp is smaller in all dimensions and even lighter than panny gx9 which gives some perspective to all these stories about "m4/3 size advantage"...

Unfortunately Sigma did leave out two features which are mandatory for handheld hybrid cameras in 2020 no matter how small they are: IBIS and viewfinder.

Only after fp sales fell short or expectations, they realized that small size alone was no longer a selling point in mirrorless FF world and went all in to professional video features. Lack of IBIS, viewfinder or even proper tilting OLED display are not showstoppers when you mount this body on a filmmaking rig together with Atomos Ninja and whatnot but in this use case the whole raison d'être for this product became totally irrelevant. Ultra small size and lack of proper controls just make it difficult to use.

New version of fp with 7 stop IBIS and at least a proper tilting OLED display would be a real attractive alternative in sub 2k€ FF-category even if Sigma has to add a couple millimeters here and there.
 

Mike Wingate

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It must be nice for Sigma to have a body on to which they can mount their L-mount lenses.
 

John M Flores

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When I'm on the road for assignments, my minimum kit is typically two bodies and two zooms covering the traditional 24-70mm and 70-200mm FF focal ranges. Space permitting, I'll add a fast prime or two for low-light/special applications and a wide zoom too. Then there's my 360 camera gear, a tripod, a laptop, some water and snacks, layers of clothes, etc...I really should add a flash to that kit along with the batteries, diffusers, and a shotgun mic and ...etc... That often adds up to 16-18 lbs of gear that I haul on my back for days and sometimes weeks on end.

For me, size and weight are important. Every once in a while I check to see where the full-frame systems are at. Sure the bodies have shrunk but the zooms are still bigger than I'd like them to be.

[Lumix on the left, Sony on the right]
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

Those are some of the smallest Sony zooms that I could find on the right. [ https://j.mp/383CdtP ]

In 2016, I rode four weeks across the country on an electric motorcycle and used smaller zooms
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

[ https://j.mp/3mG31nY ]

So until Sony or Nikon or Canon create full frame systems that can compete with M43 on zoom kit size OR my needs change OR the way tht I shoot changes, I'm stuck here. Which is ok, since I kind of like it here.
 

BDR-529

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It must be nice for Sigma to have a body on to which they can mount their L-mount lenses.
Sigma is listing a full portfolio of 56 Sigma lenses for their fp camera which is interesting because they only have 14 L-mount ones.

Technically speaking they are correct: Sigma has created two adapters: MC-21 and MC-31 which enable the use of their Canon EF and Arri PL lenses on all L-mount camera bodies (excludind pre-2019 Leica models).

PL adapter is just a mechanical one but true cine lenses are manual anyway. EF adapter is more interesting because it has build-in electronics and a lens database which can be updated (profile should include even DFD data). Sigma only promises that it supports all Sigma EF-lenses but in addition to AFS and auto exposure even EXIF-data should be available. Some online testers have found out that adapter works fine with native Canon lenses as well even though they are slower due to lack of DFD data. Unfortunately AFC is not supported so it's manucal focus only for video.
 

MPrince

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From Buy and Sell to Open Discussion, it seems there are a larger than normal number of people using different systems, posting sales ads for house cleaning or sell off, talking about moving to another format, etc. There are threads about it, and again it seems more than usual. A lot of long-standing members are posting with new gear. Is it because of Olympus' sale? COVID boredom, or just boredom in general?
I'll be getting a Canon RP delivered some time today. As long as their final quote is close enough to their preliminary quote all my mft gear will be sold to B&H. I made the switch because I'm not confident in Olympus' future and I'm not interested in Panasonic. The RP with the 24-105 non L lens is only slightly larger and barely heavier than the EM 10 mii with 14-150 lens. The RP/24-105 zoom range is not as versatile, but I can live with that. I rented the RP combo a few months ago and was very impressed.
 

Carbonman

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I expect my Olympus cameras and lenses to last for many years; my various pieces of Canon FD equipment lasted from 12 to 25 years and the lenses are probably still going strong. I'm old enough that what I have will potentially outlast me! :drinks:
 

BDR-529

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I expect my Olympus cameras and lenses to last for many years; my various pieces of Canon FD equipment lasted from 12 to 25 years and the lenses are probably still going strong. I'm old enough that what I have will potentially outlast me! :drinks:
I have adapted lenses (Pentax, Konica and of course Olympus) from 1970's and 1980's. Since they are fully manual, they will keep going forever as long as I don't drop them on anything hard. Today they are a mere 40+ years old and especially one Hexanon 28mm that came with it's original packaging and all accessories is essentially brand new.

But the reason why they exist today is a combination of three features
1) they are fully manual and
2) they have way much longer flange focal length than mirrorless digital cameras and
3) they have image circle that meets or exceeds lenses used on modern digical cameras

This means that you can actually use them on contemporary mirrorless cameras because it's easy to create an adapter for them. It's nothing more than a CNC machined hollow tube of aluminium with different flanges on each end.

Unfortunately none of this is true for modern mirrorless camera lenses and m4/3 or APS-C lenses are even worse off. Each lens is full of electronics and electromechanical components which have only marginally better life-expectancy than smartphones. And even if they would still work after 20 years, where are you going to mount them? I can't even predict whether new m4/3 bodies are developed next year but I'm pretty sure that new m4/3 cameras are not available after 5 years or so.

Even if it was possible to create an adapter for m4/3 or APS-C-lenses, reverse-engineer their control protocol and embed a controller chip inside the adapter á la Sigma MC-21, you still need an ILC that has sub-FF image sensor to match the image circle of these lenses. Nobody is going to use an adapted lens on their mirrorless FF cameras if it covers only 25% of the pixels in the center of the sensor and as per today a flat 100% of R&D investments, marketing budget and manufacturing volume is being allocated on mirrorless FF. That's all we will have in five years no matter which existing ILC manufacturer survives that long.
 

RS86

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Any tangible asset has a usefull life and investment made into one must return a profit during that time period even when possible maintenance costs and loan payments are taken into consideration.

Camera can only be an investment for professional photographers who make a living out of their photographs and videos.

For everyone else it's just a cost of a hobby.

The old wisdom about cars is valid for cameras and lenses as well: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"
I think you're wrong, I put this here earlier, but maybe you didn't see it. "4 informal : to spend money on (something useful or helpful to oneself)" Why would this require a person to be a professional?

But yeah, I thought of this thread when I read this review about the new lens.

Really, the reviewer William Brawley, is an American, and has been at least an Assistant News Editor at a newspaper and a multimedia producer at The Covington News and The Rockdale News. I would assume he knows something about how to use English words.

Can we finally agree that it is totally proper to use "investment" relating to camera gear for anyone, just like we have seen from the dictionary examples I put here?

"In the end, yes, the Olympus 150-400mm f/4.5 IS Pro very expensive in and of itself, but it's also very, very good. Lenses for serious wildlife photography are often quite pricey and are a serious investment, and the Olympus 150-400mm is no exception. However, when compared to several of its full-frame counterparts, the 150-400mm Pro is both reasonably priced and incredibly versatile. If you want to slim-down your wildlife gear, and free yourself from tripods and monopods, the lightweight Olympus 150-400mm Pro lens is worth serious consideration."

https://www.imaging-resource.com/le...4.5-tc1.25x-is-pro-m.zuiko-digital-ed/review/
 
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