Samsung NX1 - tech's 800 pound gorilla enters the pro-enthusiast race

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by tomO2013, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. tomO2013

    tomO2013 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    799
    Oct 28, 2013
    The biggest surprise so far for me from Photokina was the announcement from Samsung of the NX1 with a specsheet on paper that sounds like a technological jump over every other APS-C, m43 or other camera body available. It remains to be seen how it works in the real world. If larger sensors benefit from BSI technology as much as smaller sensors, it's conceivable that it could at least equal todays high res 35mm format sensors in terms of noise and colour depth.

    http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7933116058/samsung-nx1-debuts-with-aps-c-backside-illuminated-cmos

    Now, a camera and a system are two entirely different things. Samsung need to pad out their primes, particularly on the wide end, open up their mount to Sigma, Tamron and other players. They also need to get a solid lighting platform going .... my point is that they still have work to do and I don't see many pro's dumping their EM1's, D800's for this yet given its such a juvenille ecosystem but based on this photokina, Samsung really do look to be making the right moves especially in the areas of video and hybrid.
     
  2. battleaxe

    battleaxe Mu-43 Top Veteran

    It will be interesting to see how BSI works on sensor this size(I think it's the largest sensor to use BSI so far).
     
  3. Not such a big surprise. The final specs of the NX1 are very close to what had been rumoured for a number of months now.

    The next important task I think is to get some pieces of the NX1 into a smaller, enthusiast friendly model such as an NX400. The existing NX300 is a wonderful little camera that already comes out ahead of similar Micro 4/3 cameras in some areas but could do with some polishing such as more reliable autofocus in difficult lighting conditions and faster start-up times from a cold start.
     
  4. tomO2013

    tomO2013 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    799
    Oct 28, 2013
    The surprise though wasn't just the high megapixel count... it was taking (what was considered to be ) an expensive approach to chip manufacturing with BSI and applying the design approach to a much larger sensor than where it is traditionally used.
    Then there is the AF performance, which if it is anywhere near as good as the demo video's suggest will be in 1dx and D4s levels of continous AF capability, if not better. This thing c-af at 15fps across the full frame (or at least 90% of the frame). That's simply incredible, potentially game changing.

    When you compare this offering with the 7D mk ii ... it leaves you scratching your head , just what has canon been doing ?!

    It even gives the A7s and GH4 a run for their money in the video games. Arguably better than the A7s (it can record 4k interally with the newer H.265 codec) but not quite on the same level as the GH4 (cannot record 10bit externally... yet anyway... could come with a firmware update).

    I never thought that I would say this, but this was probably the most exciting development for me so far from the entire show.

    I love a bit of competition :)
     
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  5. Promit

    Promit Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 6, 2011
    Baltimore, MD
    Promit Roy
    I'll be watching the NX1 and its reviews very, very closely. On paper, the camera is unbelievably capable. The Samsung lenses are also very competent. (f/2-2.8 standard zoom on an APS-C chip? HELLO.) Real world performance is the mystery. How good will the 4K video on h.265 HEVC be? How effective will their on-chip PDAF be when tested by real, working photographers? Does that gigantic BSI sensor really bring home the goods? I've been curious about the Samsungs for a while, but all of the previous cameras had glaring flaws. Not so here, although I wish it had a flip screen.

    I have a GH4. I'm not averse to switching.
     
  6. LowriderS10

    LowriderS10 Monkey with a camera.

    May 19, 2013
    Canada
    It's as big and heavy as an APS-C DSLR and costs as much as a full frame DSLR...I really don't see much point in it. But the lens is quite fast for a kit, which is neat.
     
  7. jyc860923

    jyc860923 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 28, 2012
    Shenyang, China
    贾一川
    the NX system has a longer register distance, hence the bulk. It's expensive but it's an awesome body on paper and there are a few good lenses, whether it can make people justify the switch is another story. As someone doesn't own any DSLR lenses, I'd be happy to choose NX1 over D7100/A77 II/7D II if I could afford it.
     
  8. RnR

    RnR Mu-43 All-Pro

    Sep 25, 2011
    Brisbane, Australia
    Hasse
    Crikey - love the size! http://camerasize.com/compare/#394,459
     
  9. LowriderS10

    LowriderS10 Monkey with a camera.

    May 19, 2013
    Canada
    Quite frankly, WHY it's big isn't important. What IS important is that it's huge. It's almost as big as a full frame DSLR (6D, D610) is BIGGER than a full frame mirrorless (A7) and is bigger than APS-C DSLRs....in addition, the lens choices are average at best. And the final cherry on top? It's horrendously expensive. It costs $800 (or 40%!!!) more than an A7 kit. That's insane for a Samsung cropper shoved into a relatively huge body.
     
  10. alex66

    alex66 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    715
    Jul 23, 2010
    It seems way way too big for a mirror free camera, unless they have some mega amount of computational power in there.
     
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  11. sgreszcz

    sgreszcz Mu-43 Veteran

    439
    Oct 7, 2012
  12. The E-P5 is, I think, still ever so slightly the better looking camera and is a more expensive and premium product. For two cameras that are extremely close in their external dimensions, the handling of the Samsung is so much better simply because of the shape of the grip and the extra space created by moving the lens mount closer to the far edge of the body.
     
  13. LowriderS10

    LowriderS10 Monkey with a camera.

    May 19, 2013
    Canada
    I'm pretty sure that offering a relatively small sensor in a roughly average-sized body is what killed 4/3 and that system had some amazing lenses to go with it. Why Samsung thinks this is a good idea is beyond me.
     
  14. A slightly longer than average register distance doesn't mean that the Samsung NX system will have bigger lenses than any other similar mirrorless system. The gap between the sensor and shutter and the lens mount is all free space, so where it is advantageous to sit the lens closer to the sensor it is simply a matter of having the rear lens element protrude further back.

    This is borne out when you compare their lens line-up to Sony and Fujifilm, and in actual fact Samsung has an even broader range of compact prime lenses than Micro 4/3 when you consider that they have 10mm f3.5 fisheye, 16mm f2.4, 20mm f2.8, and 30mm f2 lenses which are all pancakes, and a 45mm f1.8 which weighs the same as the Olympus 45mm. I have no hands-on experience with the 10mm and the 16mm, but each of the 20mm, 30mm, and 45mm are optically better lenses overall than the roughly equivalent 14mm f2.5, 20mm f1.7, and 45mm f1.8 Micro 4/3 lenses. The Samsung 45mm f1.8 is as sharp a lens as I have used across any system, and the 20mm and 30mm pancakes have none of the vignetting issues and not nearly the same purple fringing issues of the two Panasonic pancakes and less native distortion which is impressive considering that they are required to resolve on a larger and higher resolution (20mp) sensor.
     
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  15. broody

    broody Mu-43 Veteran

    388
    Sep 8, 2013
    You're not going to get a FF camera with the same performance for this money.

    Main thing this camera does is seriously embarass Canon with their weak 7D2 update. The NX1 defeats it in every possible way. 15fps, tracking AF to match the 1DX/D4S, 28MP BSI sensor (it's been speculated the BSI tech will allow it to match the D810 for DR and noise; we're looking at least at one stop better performance than the best Sony APS-C sensor), 4K video, and the list just goes on... At the same price point.

    Samsung's lens lineup is lacking, though. But what they do have out right now is actually pretty good (generally better than Sony), and I don't doubt they're going to double down on it after releasing this monster of a camera.
     
  16. LowriderS10

    LowriderS10 Monkey with a camera.

    May 19, 2013
    Canada
    For video...no...for stills...I don't know. I'd be very surprised if it had better performance for stills than the FFs I mentioned. And yeah, the 7M2 is definitely weak, that's why I didn't even mention it haha.

    And yeah, the lenses aren't quite as bad as Sony, ESPECIALLY the FE mount (what a travesty that is)...but it's not up there with Canon, Nikon or M4/3 (brands with which it competes in size, weight and price).
     
  17. battleaxe

    battleaxe Mu-43 Top Veteran

    Well the to fair the size could be due to the BSI in a APS-C size sensor, paired with 4k video support, and the fact it's running Samsungs Tizen smartphone OS, which I think requires a decent amount of power.
     
  18. tomO2013

    tomO2013 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    799
    Oct 28, 2013
    As somebody who finds the EM1 and GH4 perfectly sized for my hands - as a system this Samsung looks fantastic.
    The body is pretty much the same size as the GH4 which itself isn't much bigger than the EM1. The zooms are larger, but the tradeoff there is that at least the 24-70 is faster - not necessarily better optically though as I have not shot this combo.

    The physical dimensions are not an issue to me - more important to me are the ergonomics in the hand, balance, and the actual weight. I haven't seen anything yet to suggest that the GH4 / EM1 is significantly lighter than the NX1.

    This is an article from around the time of the iPhone4 intro extolling the benefits of BSI - it's somewhat relevant still today.

    I'm not saying that Samsung will see anywhere near as obvious the benefit that Apple did moving from the 3gs generation to iPhone 4 - still, in theory BSI will yield better dynamic range and noise characteristics . Of course there is more magic than just BSI sensors going on behind the scenes in modern day camera phones, often relying on LOTS of PP in software. But Samsung have a LOT of background experience with this tech - it isn't a 'just out the gate' solution. This is something that they have been refining over the years in smaller sensors to the point that todays Galaxy S 4/5's and iPhone 5's etc... have effectively killed the compact camera market... Samsung know what they are doing.
    In theory this could match or exceed the D810 at base ISO while also being extremely competitive at higher ISO's. While maintaining similar size to the EM1/GH4 lines.

    Regarding Samsung glass - didn't Samsung have some agreement with Schneider, in a similar vein to Sony/Zeiss, Panasonic/Leica etc... ?

    Their new S-lens are supposed to be optically superb.
     
  19. tosvus

    tosvus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    632
    Jan 4, 2014
    I read somewhere that due to the mount it is hard to adapt other lenses to it? Anyone else know?
     
  20. The register distance of the lens mount means that you can't adapt Leica M mount lenses, which is not an issue that is going to effect a whole lot of people. For other lenses it does mean that the adapters are smaller. Their focus peaking is as good as Sony's and better than Olympus' so they are still great cameras to adapt other lenses to.
     
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