Rumours that Panasonic is slowing/postponing Micro Four Thirds gear

speedy

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Does anyone have the bandwidth and monitor resolution to take advantage of 8k Netflix? And is there really any point? I have a 1920x1080 40” TV and standard HD Netflix is excellent on it. What would 8k, or even 4k, add that is worth all the extra cost?
Don't know what country you're in, but we struggle even to get full HD here in Aus a lot of the time, let alone 4K content. 8K? Don't make me laugh 😂

Anyway, if it does happen in the GH6, I have a hard time seeing Panasonic abandoning their current market. I'd suspect we'd see something like the current lineup, of the GH5 & 5s, where 20MP would become the new 12.
 

BDR-529

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Don't know what country you're in, but we struggle even to get full HD here in Aus a lot of the time, let alone 4K content. 8K? Don't make me laugh 😂

Even if there's endless amount of bandwidth and 8k displays human race has not yet developed 8k eyes.

You really need wall-sized 8k screen in your living room before the resolution improvement from 4k to 8k becomes evident.

8k does have use in cine productions and the more pixels raw footage has the more room you have in post processing even if you are not shooting hollywood productions. Or so they say.

From my point of view it makes zero sense to pay for the extra cost and bulk required to have 8k video in pro/consumer ILC body.

8k MFT camera would always be technically "hybrid" because it can shoot both video and still images but it would not be a hybrid from marketing perspective because model would become so expensive and bulky that it would appeal to only those who absolutely must have 8k. By the end of this decade 8k will of course become the new 4k but not right now.
 
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BDR-529

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As soon as 8K begins to get traction, someone will attempt to create a market for something "better".

What you mean by "As soon as?" Echo from Canon 8k bombshell had not even died out before Blackmagic topped them:

June 2020:
" Move over, 8K – the Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro 12K delivers revolutionary 80MP, 12K video for $9,995 "
 

archaeopteryx

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BGH-1 and GH5S are excellent example of this. You can take still images with them and they actually deliver highest low light IQ and dynamic range of any MFT camera.
Please cite the source for this claim. While it's been made repeatedly, repetition does not make it more consistent with measurement of the G9 and recent E-M1s. In particular, I'm interested to see the BGH1 measurements.
 

BDR-529

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Please cite the source for this claim. While it's been made repeatedly, repetition does not make it more consistent with measurement of the G9 and recent E-M1s. In particular, I'm interested to see the BGH1 measurements.

Since BGH-1 is a MFT cine camera, only video tests are available until Dxomark reviews it but for example Cine-D has measured both GH5 and BGH-1

Note that BGH-1 has dual-ISO sensor (400 & 2000) so you can't express results with a single dynamic range value.

What they measured for BGH-1 at ISO400 was 12,7 (SNR=1) which is pretty much in line with Panasonic marketing material where they list 13 stop dynamic range.

Even more impressive was the 12,4 (SNR=1) reading at ISO2000 which is the second native value.

GH5 was able to deliver "roughly 10 stops" (SNR=1) between ISO400 and ISO800

https://www.cined.com/panasonic-bgh1-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/

https://www.cined.com/panasonic-gh5-lab-test/

As said, this is a video test but it should be pretty obvious that a later sensor design from same manufacturer with substantially larger pixels and dual-ISO will certainly perform better especially under low light conditions.

For comparison dual-ISO Panasonic S5 numbers:
13,2 (SNR=1) at ISO640
13,0 (SNR=1) at ISO4000
 
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JonSnih

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On the Panasonic front, I think it’s obvious that they are cooling in their commitment to m43. Hopefully that’ll be good news for OMD since I think the format has a lot going for it.

Do you have anything concrete in mind, Paul? Any ideas for future lens releases? AI stuff or anything else? Thanks.
 

D7k1

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In the end, none of us know what the major players are going to do. We can "guess" and that is mostly what this thread is about, but in the long run only time will tell. In the mean time I am busy using my G9/Oly60mm shooting the couple of hundred of fossils I've found in the last year, isn't that what gear is for:)
 

pdk42

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Do you have anything concrete in mind, Paul? Any ideas for future lens releases? AI stuff or anything else? Thanks.
Well, I have my own wish list of stuff I'd like to see. There's the obvious things like better EVF, better rear screen, more DR etc - but on the lens front the system as a whole is looking pretty complete. About the only obvious hole is a shift lens - ideally a 12mm. Then there's perhaps a refresh of the f1.8/f2 primes - esp the 12mm since its IQ is a bit behind the rest of the range now.
 
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I’m really no expert in the camera marketing business. But I’m pretty sure that all the major camera brands work pretty hard at it and do have people who are experts. My own amateur observations do however lead me to believe that the growth and money are more in video than stills. The new OMD Corp had said as much too. As a 100% stills shooter, this probably means that new features won’t be directly addressed at me, but it does seem that there a lot of overlap (especially sensor tech) so it’s not all bad.

On the Panasonic front, I think it’s obvious that they are cooling in their commitment to m43. Hopefully that’ll be good news for OMD since I think the format has a lot going for it.

I agree in general. Video is a key capability, an area where Panasonic has always been a leader. Olympus a bit of a laggard. However, I hope that Panasonic does not give up on M43 because that enriches the ecosystem and pushes Olympus to compete. I view both companies as vital pillars of the M43 ecosystem.
 
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That makes zero sense. Why would Panasonic invest in creating a whole new product line in areas, where in your own words, are already heavily over subscribed? Not only that, but taking on the established players such as Canon, Nikon and Sony.

Video is the only imaging area with growth. Panasonic saw this before anyone.

They had their P&S cams which were the best on the market at video, but they also had a range of 3CCD pro and consumer video cams. Most Panasonic imaging revenues come from their broadcast products. Stills photo was always a sidebar niche; a tiny fraction of their video play.

The GH series emphasized the portable, auteur content market and was very successful, especially the GH5 which was times with journalist productions moving away totally from any stills accompaniment to spot video. But for full market spectrum competing against RED, Sony, Canon, they needed a higher IQ, larger sensor. Their broadcast format is mostly Super35 and relies on controlled lighting. That’s why they had to go FF and did so in the L-mount consortium. They needed to hit all video sub-markets with a variety formats or Panasonic ceases to be competitive as all other players go top-tier IQ down. That’s the $$$. Stills imaging doesn’t drive Panasonic and is minuscule in revenues.
 

archaeopteryx

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it should be pretty obvious that a later sensor design from same manufacturer with substantially larger pixels and dual-ISO will certainly perform better
Thanks! I think a number of factors are being conflated or overlooked here. A bit of disassembly might be useful. To back up somewhat, this is probably a comparison between what seems most likely a reuse of some of the IMX294 masks (GH5S and BHG1) and the IMX272 (GH5, GH9). So far as I know the relationship between 2x2 binning, long-time and short-time pixels, and dual ISO is murky. Analysis is complicated by Sony's lack of SNR information on the IMX272 and I don't see any clear mapping between the two chip's PGA capabilities and the ISOs available on the camera bodies. But the basic thing is it's likely a comparison between 10.2 effective MP and 20.3MP with the effective MP plausibly having distinct behavior from actual MP.

If one were to make a baseline assumption the 10.2MP sensor had 1.4x the pixel pitch of the 20.3MP the associated null hypothesis would be that the 10.2MP sensor would have one more stop of dynamic range because its pixels have twice the area. We might be sceptical this null hypothesis is a good approximation because
  1. Pixel scaling rarely exact and neither sensor is back side illuminated. Additionally, effective MP are unlikely to fully reproduce the behavior of actual MP.
  2. Bill Claff's measurements, linked upthread, show 0.1 stop more dynamic range from GH5 below ISO 800 and half a stop in favor of the GH5S above. If the measurements are correct, the null hypothesis is false for the GH5S. Since the GH5S and BGH1 very likely share a sensor it's unlikely off die changes would introduce a 0.5-1 stop of improvement, implying the null hypothesis is most likely also false for the BGH1.
  3. The null hypothesis has been shown to be false for similar changes in pixel area in MP to MP comparisons involving the IMX272 which bypass possible effective MP confounds.
  4. CineD changed methodology between testing the GH5 and BGH1, suggesting the two measurements are not directly comparable. While other causes of differences are certainly not precluded, it appears plausible higher DNR is reported for the BGH1 due to the change from VLog to VLog-L, use of waveform charting, and perhaps the use of different test charts. Though CineD indicates SNR = 1 for both measurements the text of the two articles also suggests different handling of noise that may result in reporting of higher BGH1 DNR.
It does not seem CineD has measured the GH5S or retested the GH5 with VLog-L firmware and BGH1 methods, precluding triangulation of their results. One might hope someone eventually sends BGH1 data to Bill since it is not at all obvious a later sensor design from same manufacturer with substantially larger pixels and dual ISO actually does perform better.

In particular, it appears a plausible interpretation of currently available evidence is the lower IMX294ish ISO underperforms the IMX272 while the upper ISO realizes only half of the potential of the larger pixels. From an information content perspective, this implies the upper ISO is less suited to downsizing workflows due to its lower area efficiency even though it favours more attractive headline numbers.

Unfortunately if BGH1 DxOMarks were available I'm not entirely they would be helpful to our purposes here. DxO hasn't measured the GH5S and it's my understanding their scores aren't always directly comparable. While I would hope DNR measurements could be compared and I suspect DxOMark's methods are probably more stable than CineD's DxOMark protocol 4 does include some dynamic range changes.
 
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BDR-529

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L-mount rumour page had an interesting translation about L-mount alliance presentation at CP+

They claimed that L-mount alliance is now the third most popular mount in Japan whithout specifying in which category but hey, Panny must be happy to have the second "Big in Japan" mount in their portfolio.

More interesting were Panny claims to have multiple (L-mount) cameras and lenses in the pipeline and even Sigma said they will release more "crazy" products.

This doesn't sound like panny is going to throw in the towel as far as L-mount is concerned but it's open to debate what this means for their investment in MFT.

Alliance also hinted that L-mount might get new partners and this could become a real bombshell.

It might be nothing more than Tamron or Chinese lens manufacturer like Venus or Meike who plans to add L-mount lens(es) in their portfolio but I'm not sure if they have to join the alliance just to do that.

On the other hand there are three traditional ILC manufacturers who don't have mirrorless FF mounts of their own and L-mount alliance is the only way for them to jump into FF bandwagon at this point. Also: OMDS, Fuji and Pentax. Even Zeiss has sort of tried to enter the camera market with ZX1 and L-mount would be perfect boutique mount for them.
 

Origami101

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They claimed that L-mount alliance is now the third most popular mount in Japan whithout specifying in which category but hey, Panny must be happy to have the second "Big in Japan" mount in their portfolio.
What possible category could that be? Mounts Panasonic manufactures for? (They do M4/3, L, and EF and PL for their cine cameras.) L-Mount seems to be substantially underperforming E, R, and Z mounts in Japan, not to mention M4/3, so it can’t with a straight face be mirrorless or 135 format mirrorless.
 

BDR-529

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What possible category could that be? Mounts Panasonic manufactures for? (They do M4/3, L, and EF and PL for their cine cameras.) L-Mount seems to be substantially underperforming E, R, and Z mounts in Japan, not to mention M4/3, so it can’t with a straight face be mirrorless or 135 format mirrorless.

Yesterday Petapixel told about Nikon mirrorless market share in Japan which does clearly indicate that they might have lost the mirrorless FF race. Even though Nikon is still second in rapidly falling SLR category, they have managed to win only 7,5% of the mirrorless market which is just one step away from "others"-category.

" ...according to market research firm Techno Systems Research, Sony and Canon lead in market share with 35% and 30% respectively, followed by Fujifilm with 12%, Olympus with 8%, and finally Nikon with 7.5% "

Panny is nowhere to be seen but based on previous Japan sales charts, they are just behind Nikon and Sigma has even topped panny earlier with the single fp model that seems to be a huge hit in japan. In any case Panny and Sigma L-mount sales together could currently top Nikon's (Z-mount) 7,5% and Olympus 8%

Since L-mount is competing in mirrorless FF category, they might conveniently ignore Fuji (+OMDS) and compare sales to Sony and Canon mirrorless FF mount instead.
 
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BDR-529

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Too much reading the tea leaves I feel. It was only a few months back Panasonic beat Fujifilm for market share in Japan.

It's sort of interesting to see how different the Japanese market is compared to rest of the world but the only real takeaway from these numbers is that only two major players: Sony and even johnny-come-lately Canon have taken the mirrorless market in Japan by storm whereas Nikon really struggles to stay out of the "others" category with 1/4th of their market share.

Panny as a company is currently in excellent financial state thanks to corona which has increased substantially consumer electronics sales but Nikon as a company is in very bad situation because all their business units are in tailspin.
 
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