Robin Wong's Ten Things OM Digital Solutions must do...

Joined
Jul 13, 2020
Messages
373
Location
Hoher Fläming, Germany
Back then the whole world of photography looked vastly different. Personally I simply don't see FF as the holy financially grail as some others do. Sony pretty much dominates the FF market, with Canon somewhere behind and even further away Nikon, a company which also had to shrink, close factories flatten customer support. What kind of appeal would an Olympus FF camera body have? Sure they could essentially just size everything up and release FF versions of their E-M1 Mark III and E-M1X lines. They have to start from scratch when it comes to lenses and for a company which is already said to be doomed due to the JIP sale, who would entrust OMDS the build of a new system? At least with MFT they have a foundation.
Sure they could join the L-Mount Alliance with Panasonic, Leica and Sigma, but how successful is the L-Mount actually? To my knowledge it is essentially running far behind everybody else, with the majority of people rather buying more established FF systems like Sony or Canon.

Personally I'd rather keep my MFT equipment and spend new money at Fujifilm's offerings than giving it to an OMDS fullframe system.
 

BDR-529

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
676
This is film technology. The quality improvement from half frame to 35mm to 6x6 is easily visible on a small print. It's not a comparison equivalent to MFT and FF by any stretch.

I object to that. As a kid I had an Agfamatic Pocket camera that used ridiculously tiny 110 film. Image size was actually the same as in MFT sensor: 13*17mm which is also 1/4 of FF.
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Agfamatic_2000_pocket_sensor

Under good light those 9*13cm photos everyone ordered back in the day didn't look any worse than images from very cheap 35mm rangefinder cameras which were the alternative to 110 models.

110 was good enough for Minolta to create an entire SLR camera around it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_110_Zoom_SLR

Neither 110 nor "half frame" Pen-F were designed for professional wedding photographers or anything like that. For the intended use both (and especially Pen-F) had more than good enough image quality. Even half of 35mm film is more than adequate for, say, A4 sized prints if only very high quality lenses are used but this was exactly the case with Pen-F.

Even though it's impossible to give exact answer to question: how many megapixels is 35mm frame, a ballpark number is 20MP so half frame is still 10MP and even 110 has 5MP. This is the right time to remember that every image you post to this forum is compressed to around 2MP.

Anything that you post anywhere in the internet is typically viewed with a device or display that has 2MP or in extreme cases 4MP so even 110 film has enough pixels if only those pixels have high enough quality i.e. image is taken with a high quality lens.
 
Last edited:

AmritR

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
140
Location
Alkmaar
..
".... "If you can't beat them, join them"
Then Olympus should have introduced mirrorless a 35mm in 2009. The 35mm ship has sailed, and a bit of a ‘wreckage on the edge‘ themselves.

Olympus/JIP will have to work with what they’ve got, and try to carve out their own niche.

Just an improved sensor would probably already shove a lot of boxes to existing Olympus users and provide some life support.
 

AmritR

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
140
Location
Alkmaar
Maybe JIP should introduce the OM1-4 with a Sony 1’ sensor and turn their 100-400 into a 400-1600 mm equivalent zoom. If the world majority considers a cellphone sensor sufficient a 1’ sensor will do.

and provided they have it in time on the shelves before Covid19 evaporates and the economy, tourism and consumption restarts, boosted by penned up savings.

Timing is important.
 

BDR-529

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
676
Then Olympus should have introduced mirrorless a 35mm in 2009. The 35mm ship has sailed, and a bit of a ‘wreckage on the edge‘ themselves.

Read the history again more carefully.

Olympus was very late to join the "35mm SLR bandwagon" but still made it thanks to late great Maitani who used lessons from Pen-F to create a compact and very cool looking OM-1 together with an excellent set of high quality Olympus lenses.

Even the entry level OM-10 I have is still a very high quality piece of camera equipment not to mention adapted OM lenses on MFT cameras.

/edit: Olympus was so late to join the 35mm SLR hype that by they time they finally closed "half frame" production in 1970, they were able to simply buy an ODM design as a stopgap solution and win a couple of years to finalize OM-1 which was introduced in 1972.

Olympus FTL is a model which nobody has ever seen but even so Olympus did design a full portfolio of M42 lenses for it. It's still unclear who manufactured this but Olympus did later admit that they just slapped "Olympus" badge on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_FTL
 
Last edited:

AmritR

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
140
Location
Alkmaar
Read the history again more carefully. Olympus was very late to join the "35mm SLR bandwagon" but still made it thanks to late great Maitani who used lessons from Pen-F to create a compact and very cool looking OM-1 together with excellent set of high quality Olympus lenses.

Even the entry level OM-10 I have is still a very high quality piece of camera equipment not to mention adapted OM lenses on MFT cameras.
well, as they say, generals tend to fight the last war.

Or to quote Henry Ford:


History is more or less bunk. It is tradition. We don’t want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker’s dam is the history we make today.

That’s the trouble with the world. We’re living in books and history and tradition. We want to get away from that and take care of today. We’ve done too much looking back. What we want to do and do it quick is to make just history right now.



You’ve got to be realistic about these things. Someone at JIP will have made a business case, and work from what they’ve got.

They will also be better informed about the financials off other makers. As far as I can tell Canikon and Sony aren’t doing very well themselves (Sony sensor business excluding, that’s a different P&L). There will be restraints of what can and what cannot be done.

Hopefully there is a business case for an updated sensor, get some traction again in the market, give off a signal of being alive and kicking, and continue to work on other improvements. Simplifying the interface, connectivity and start marketing to younger people.

(I actually studied history at the university of Amsterdam :whistling: They hated Fords quote. But I read later the actual context of that quote. Thnx to the internet)
 

John King

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
2,648
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
John ...
@AmritR , The reason they probably hated Ford's quote is because:

1) He was a Nazi sympathizer; and

2) He was wrong, anyway.

Those who refuse to learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
That's the sorry history of our species.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet ... ;) .
 

BDR-529

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
676
well, as they say, generals tend to fight the last war.

The point here is that arguments which say that it's too late to do anything have been proven wrong over and over again. There are endless amount of companies who have pulled off succesfull turnarounds after the demand for their original product lines has vanished in thin air.

Even more amazingly Olympus has faced exactly the same problem in 1970 and recovered from it. They were stuck with "crop frame" ILC cameras which were innovative and cool but just didn't sell and yet managed to jump into a new bandwagon that was the hype of the day i.e. 35mm SLR.

Then why should Olympus enter the mirrorless FF bandwagon in the first place?

Answer is very simple: you can't fight the market.

If mirrorless FF is what the market demands and where the volume and growth is, then't it's insane to waste time and resources arguing that "But hey, this other thing is almost as good and in some cases even better" while your market share is shrinking towards zero.

What's inherently wrong with Wong's ten commandments is that he is just listing actions which OMDS should to if they want to to survive in that 3-point-something% global market share corner they have been pushed into. Nothing he says will help them to get out of there. More pixels in EVF. Sure. Have someone to clean up the menu system. Fine. And so on.
 
Last edited:

mauve

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
1,557
Location
Paris, France
Then why should Olympus enter the mirrorless FF bandwagon in the first place?
Answer is very simple: you can't fight the market.

If mirrorless FF is what the market demands and where the volume and growth is, then't it's insane to waste time and resources arguing that "But hey, this other thing is almost as good
The only little problem being unlike in the 70's there is no growth of the photography market at all. The photography market is shrinking (strike that, collapsing is more adequate), the "growth" is only the relative share being robbed by mirrorless from compact & bridge cameras on the low end and SLRs on the high end.
M.
 
Last edited:

RichardC

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,381
Location
The Royal Town of Sutton Coldfield, UK.
Real Name
Richard
I object to that. As a kid I had an Agfamatic Pocket camera that used ridiculously tiny 110 film. Image size was actually the same as in MFT sensor: 13*17mm which is also 1/4 of FF.
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Agfamatic_2000_pocket_sensor

Under good light those 9*13cm photos everyone ordered back in the day didn't look any worse than images from very cheap 35mm rangefinder cameras which were the alternative to 110 models.

110 was good enough for Minolta to create an entire SLR camera around it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_110_Zoom_SLR

Neither 110 nor "half frame" Pen-F were designed for professional wedding photographers or anything like that. For the intended use both (and especially Pen-F) had more than good enough image quality. Even half of 35mm film is more than adequate for, say, A4 sized prints if only very high quality lenses are used but this was exactly the case with Pen-F.

Even though it's impossible to give exact answer to question: how many megapixels is 35mm frame, a ballpark number is 20MP so half frame is still 10MP and even 110 has 5MP. This is the right time to remember that every image you post to this forum is compressed to around 2MP.

Anything that you post anywhere in the internet is typically viewed with a device or display that has 2MP or in extreme cases 4MP so even 110 film has enough pixels if only those pixels have high enough quality i.e. image is taken with a high quality lens.

Object by all means. Unlike pixel size, film grain size of the same film type doesn't vary across formats. Even in good light, you would need pretty bad eyesight not to see the difference unless your processing and the 35mm camera you cite was particularly crap.

I appreciate that professional wedding photographers wouldn't use half frame cameras.

I also appreciate that there are many professional wedding photographers who do indeed use MFT.

Like I said, half frame vs MFT in this context is a flawed comparison.
 

AmritR

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
140
Location
Alkmaar
@AmritR , The reason they probably hated Ford's quote is because:

1) He was a Nazi sympathizer; and

2) He was wrong, anyway.

Those who refuse to learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
That's the sorry history of our species.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet ... ;) .
well, being a nazi sympathizer was as far as I remember not so much of an issue. In the early 1900’s you’ll find a lot of those in all kind of variations. That happens when you look back. You get examples like Rousseau who wrote groundbreaking material on raising children, and put his own children in an orphanage.

His quote was interpreted a direct insult on the historians job. Like a burglar, getting burgled him self. Doesn’t get any worse than that.
Even worse, he was an industrialist. The university was a bit more leftisch.

But they should have checked context. A very successfull entrepreneur, early 1900.’s in the US. Today Ford’s work would be labeled as ‘disruptive’ and silicon valley would be all over it.

Learning from History is a bit of a thing. Usually people learn things from History which supports their preconceptions and biases.

Anyhow, I can go on for hours about this. There are library’s full of books about the profession of historian it self. One of the first books we had to read was ‘What is history’ by Edward Carr.

luckily, this is just about a niche camera brand/system by people who still care one way or another
 

mauve

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
1,557
Location
Paris, France
But they should have checked context. A very successfull entrepreneur, early 1900.’s in the US. Today Ford’s work would be labeled as ‘disruptive’ and silicon valley would be all over it.
Maybe, but he was a bit of a prick too, if I remember well what I read about his son Edsel. And far from being always right either.
M.
 

fortwodriver

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
1,178
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Frank
A black-and-white only camera just seems like marketing to me. Losing 99% for 1% gain. I've never had problems with doing black-and-white with ORFs, even taking advantage of separate red and green and blue channels. If people don't care about the flexibility of digital, then they should go back to film.

Of course it's marketing. There are film-camera users who just refuse to use colour film because colour supposedly distorts the art. In the same way, their users believe that the Bayer pattern distorts what can be gleaned from the sensor when reduced to shades of grey.

That aside, I really don't think Leica makes that many Monochrom cameras... They don't even make that many regular M cameras. They will always be marketing to a very small group of people. I wonder how much longer they will be able to.
 

fortwodriver

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
1,178
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Frank
Answer is very simple: you can't fight the market.

If mirrorless FF is what the market demands and where the volume and growth is, then't it's insane to waste time and resources arguing that "But hey, this other thing is almost as good and in some cases even better" while your market share is shrinking towards zero.

You are clearly missing the point in a far larger way. "The Market," if you mean the general buying-snapshot-taking public has virtually moved on from separate cameras. Lots already have DSLRs or mirrorless cameras in their closets gathering dust. Many bought them because a friend of their told them they should have one. They used it a few times and then set it aside when camera phones became good enough.

The Market doesn't care about full-frame, because they don't see ANY point in carrying around a separate camera most of the time. Ergo, most of their memories will be captured on the device that's convenient for them - and that is now clearly the smartphone.

Connectivity is key, and the phone has already set the bar in terms of size. There are movies and photographs being shot with smartphones now that are winning awards. Coffin meet nail.

By the way, your 110 example was also off the mark. The vast majority of 110 users bought into the format to use cheap, integrated, automatic cameras which left a lot to be desired. Many had plastic lenses or really basic focusing. Those cameras, with that film, were basically what cause 110 and Disc to disappear. Very few of those high-end 110 cameras ever sold. The high-end 110 cameras were actually a solution looking for problem.

All this aside, there will forever be professionals using professional cameras. There will also always be amateurs and gear-collectors buying the next higher megapixels and the next size sensor, but it will be far less than it has been. There is room in the amateur camera market for something like m43 or 1-inch.
 
Last edited:

fortwodriver

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
1,178
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Frank
It's still unclear who manufactured this but Olympus did later admit that they just slapped "Olympus" badge on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_FTL

I seem to recall the FTL was designed by a Japanese subsidiary that had their hands in Pentacon and Cosina, although the last time I heard anyone talk about it I was a teenager in the late 80s.
 

threeOh

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
185
Let’s all hope all these thoughts align with JIP's strategic plan for OMD. JIP has been around for a long time. They've acquired a lot (circa 25-50??) companies. With a portfolio that's composed of many western brands, few consumer brands, many of which were intellectual knowledge acquisitions and no longer exist as a functioning company or brand. They only have a Japanese language website and pretty much run well under the radar in Western VC circles. OM is unusual in that, along with VIAO, is still functioning as a consumer business. VIAO, which some of us know, hasn’t had a nickel invested in anything other than fancy marketing since it was acquired.

For what Robin is talking about to happen, JIP will have to be a very different company that it’s been so far. We'll see.
 

pdk42

One of the "Eh?" team
Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
7,455
Location
Leamington Spa, UK
This discussion about OMDS getting into FF is fanciful. The costs of developing a new system would be enormous - way beyond what OMDS can fund, and they'd never find an external investor either given the state of the camera market and the competition already out there for FF. They could perhaps join the L-mount alliance and find some niche there - but I really can't see that being a big money-spinner either.

I'm still convinced that m43 has a niche that won't go away and OMDS have an excellent presence there. I think OMDS will do just fine if they stick to that!
 
Last edited:

AmritR

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Jun 18, 2017
Messages
140
Location
Alkmaar
The point here is that arguments which say that it's too late to do anything have been proven wrong over and over again. There are endless amount of companies who have pulled off succesfull turnarounds after the demand for their original product lines has vanished in thin air.

Even more amazingly Olympus has faced exactly the same problem in 1970 and recovered from it. They were stuck with "crop frame" ILC cameras which were innovative and cool but just didn't sell and yet managed to jump into a new bandwagon that was the hype of the day i.e. 35mm SLR.

Then why should Olympus enter the mirrorless FF bandwagon in the first place?

Answer is very simple: you can't fight the market.

If mirrorless FF is what the market demands and where the volume and growth is, then't it's insane to waste time and resources arguing that "But hey, this other thing is almost as good and in some cases even better" while your market share is shrinking towards zero.

What's inherently wrong with Wong's ten commandments is that he is just listing actions which OMDS should to if they want to to survive in that 3-point-something% global market share corner they have been pushed into. Nothing he says will help them to get out of there. More pixels in EVF. Sure. Have someone to clean up the menu system. Fine. And so on.

I’m also sure that if you look closely you’ll find that most of the compagnies in history at some point in their lifespan didn’t manage a turnaround but melted away in insignificance, were taken over or just went out of business.

Maybe something brilliant is going to happen at some point in time. Meantime I’d consider some modest advancement in m43 a win.
 

mauve

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
1,557
Location
Paris, France
I'm still convinced that m43 has a niche that won't go away and OMDS have an excellent presence there. I think OMDS will do just fine if they stick to that!
I agree about MFT as a whole, but I'm unsure about OMDS in the grand scheme of things. MFT has the enormous advantage of being open, so any player in the industry, established or not, can cobble any kind of project, camera or lens, and benefit from the existing ecosystem.
But when it comes to photography, I feel as a whole Japan is currently being displaced much like Germany was displaced at the end of WWII. Costs are too high and volumes are too low to sustain the industry. Penatx had pretty much folded, Olympus too, Nikon is on the brink, and we're not safe from a surprise under investors pressure from either Canon or Sony.
On the other hand, China is a relatively new and as yet untapped market. They have the industrial capacity, and an open standard is a godsend. See the likes of Iowa, 7artisans, Alice...
If photography is to survive as a segment separate from the GSM, I think the future may well be with MFT - but not necessarily with the current Japanese brands.
M.
 
Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Forum GIFs powered by GIPHY: https://giphy.com/
Copyright © Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom