Really disappointed with my new E-M10IV

PakkyT

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Why my comment about DPR? Because this thread is now at 79 posts, and is becoming somewhat repetitive, just like many gear threads at DPR.
And to @pake 's point again...
Just ignore this thread if it bothers you that much.

There is nothing in this thread I recall that I would categorize as against any of the mu-43 rules. Report it to the moderators if you feel there is something that warrants their attention.
 

John King

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And to @pake 's point again...


There is nothing in this thread I recall that I would categorize as against any of the mu-43 rules. Report it to the moderators if you feel there is something that warrants their attention.
Patrick, please read my reply to Teemu, or read it again.

No, Teemu, I have zero problems with anyone making valid criticisms of any camera they own, or have owned. I agree with most of your criticisms, in fact.

However, it has been well known that since the E-M10 MkII, Olympus has seriously limited the E-M10 series.

I feel the same about my 2006 Subaru Forester. I would not buy one made after 2008.

Why my comment about DPR? Because this thread is now at 79 posts, and is becoming somewhat repetitive, just like many gear threads at DPR.

No one forced you to buy the E-M10 MkIV, and it's 'simplicity' has always been known. It is a beginner's camera. The E-M10 MkII was like my E-PM2 - not a beginner's camera.
 

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No one said that anything in this thread was against the rules. No one said that no Micro Four Thirds gear should ever be criticized either. If people were really open and willing to listen to criticisms, they would not claim that anyone said those things, and they would probably not bother considering E-M10 IV either. I most certainly didn't.

Maybe people can just ignore threads they don't like. I can just ignore cameras I don't like as well, and there's A LOT of cameras I don't like. It took me 15 years to decide on a new camera. Lots of lenses I don't like as well, and it took two years to finally buy my second lens ever, which only arrived yesterday. Just because you won't hear much criticism from me, that doesn't mean I am not a critical person.
 

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And I'll go to the opposite end of the scale from @doady. And not just because I buy and sell pretty much everything regularly. ;)

Personally I like the E-M10.4 (well in my case really the E-P7 (yes P7 not PL7). I find the simplified features and controls more enjoyable for what I use the camera for. The only real problem with the E-M10.3 and E-M10.4 (IMHO) is that Olympus released the E-M10.2. It was too complicated for too many. Yes for many of us here it has an avid following. But are the members of the "avid following" group entry level? Probably not. And what's probably the number one complaint of reviewers of many entry level camera? Menus and things are too complicated. Olympus had two options, make their entry level camera simpler or create another camera below the E-M10, only one of those options was really an option.

But for the record, yes I wish other advanced bodies still had tilt screens and yes they probably could have disabled some features be default with the option to enable them like the use to. But they didn't.
 
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pake

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And I'll go to the opposite end of the scale from @doady. And not just because I buy and sell pretty much everything regularly. ;)

Personally I like the E-M10.4 (well in my case really the E-P7 (yes P7 not PL7). I find the simplified features and controls more enjoyable for what I use the camera for. The only real problem with the E-M10.3 and E-M10.4 (IMHO) is that Olympus released the E-M10.2. It was too complicated for too many. Yes for many of us here it has an avid following. But are the members of the "avid following" group entry level? Probably not. And what's probably the number one complaint of reviewers of many entry level camera? Menus and things are too complicated. Olympus had two options, make their entry level camera simpler or create another camera below the E-M10, only one of those options was really an option.

But for the record, yes I wish other advanced bodies still had tilt screens and yes they probably could have disabled some features be default with the option to enable them like the use to. But they didn't.
Which begs the question: Why not use a simplified menu/settings as default BUT add an option to enable "advanced mode" (with the now removed options)? The features are/were there, why not just hide them by default. I remember the older Oly cameras had some of the menus hidden until you changed one setting to bring more menus visible. They could have AND SHOULD HAVE done that with the latest E-M10s. Then the camera would suit the absolute beginners who just want to press shutter but wouldn't annoy the ones who prefer to have more control of their equipment. Win-win. And I bet the implementation would have taken less time than removing all the menus from the mk4. :p

As that will not happen I just hope OMDS takes a note from the competitors who are introducing more advanced swivel/tilt screens to their cameras. If the E-M5IV had a screen that tilts normally, I'd most likely buy two of them. But I'm not betting my money on OMDS to be THAT wise or generous.
 

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Why not use a simplified menu/settings as default BUT add an option to enable "advanced mode" (with the now removed options)?

Because it brings the 5 and 10 lines too close together. Market strategy. Simple as.

Although it would be great for you to have everything you want in the lowest cost body it doesn’t make sense for OMDS to leave little reason for people to spend more on higher end models. And they’re betting the simplified menu is better for entry level so will do more to bring in new users than sticking with the complex menus.
 

comment23

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Because it brings the 5 and 10 lines too close together. Market strategy. Simple as.

Although it would be great for you to have everything you want in the lowest cost body it doesn’t make sense for OMDS to leave little reason for people to spend more on higher end models. And they’re betting the simplified menu is better for entry level so will do more to bring in new users than sticking with the complex menus.
BTW, I’m not saying I like it, or that it will work. But I do want :mu43: to survive and it’s clear the old strategy wasn’t working.
 
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So, actually, the mistake Olympus did was the EM10.2 - it was too good/complex for it's (intended) class of products. And with the mark 3 and 4 they just tried to "fix" their initial mistake. But now the problem resides in the customers which are expecting same level of camera features from this EM10 series, then they get frustrated if they don't get what they were expecting. ( I remember the same discussions about, say, Oly 8-25/4 as some people were expecting to be small and light, while others were happy with its dimensions/weight as they were expecting the lens to be bigger - like 12-100/4, for instance). So it's always about expectations. But, sometimes, when the products don't meet the "market" expectations, then that company will loose clients which will always find corresponding products on company's competitors. And also I think this "expectation" is what is driving this topic, because it's about "us", (old) Olympus users. The newcomers to this (m43) place maybe don't have (such high) expectations from an entry level camera, therefore they might be happy with an EM10.4 (since they don't compare it against make 2, or against EM5, because they have never used those cameras).
 

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Yes. Precisely. Olympus latterly, and now OMDS appear to have made a decision to sacrifice what they must have estimated to be a small number of niche usage customers (such as Teemu here) for what they believe will be greater sales and/or revenue from new users or those with less specific requirements.
 
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Since the plasticky plastic E-M5iii came out, why not merge the M10 and M5 lines and have a paid upgrade option [from simple M10 menus to proper M5 menus] when the entry level customer feels ready? If the entry level customer that just bought the entry level kit eventually becomes disappointed by your entry , he will just move elsewhere instead of paying for the higher tier body and lens combo to re-test the m43 waters the proper way now that he knows better
 

pake

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Because it brings the 5 and 10 lines too close together. Market strategy. Simple as.

Although it would be great for you to have everything you want in the lowest cost body it doesn’t make sense for OMDS to leave little reason for people to spend more on higher end models. And they’re betting the simplified menu is better for entry level so will do more to bring in new users than sticking with the complex menus.
Even if they did actually bring back the old settings to E-M10s, it'd still be far from E-M5s level. HiRes, ProCapture, PDAF, weathersealing, number of buttons, swivel screen etc. etc. Should I continue?
 

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Yes. Precisely. Olympus latterly, and now OMDS appear to have made a decision to sacrifice what they must have estimated to be a small number of niche usage customers (such as Teemu here) for what they believe will be greater sales and/or revenue from new users or those with less specific requirements.
That's precisely why I have recommended to experienced photographer friends to buy the E-M10 MkII while it was available, rather than the MkIII (or now, MkIV).
 

pake

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Since the plasticky plastic E-M5iii came out, why not merge the M10 and M5 lines
That's a horrible idea. That would mean E-M10 would take a step forward with features AND price (and people here are saying it should be dumb as a boot --> it would scare away the beginners) and E-M5 would take a giant leap backwards. H*** no!

EDIT: Let's change that "dumb as a boot"-thing to "easy enough for an idiot to use".
 

comment23

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Even if they did actually bring back the old settings to E-M10s, it'd still be far from E-M5s level. HiRes, ProCapture, PDAF, weathersealing, number of buttons, swivel screen etc. etc. Should I continue?
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you but evidently Olympus/OMDS didn’t think that was enough differentiation.
 

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I am one of those enthusiasts who didn't see enough differentiation between the E-M10.2 and the E-M5.1 or .2 (I forget which was available when the E-M10.2 was first introduced) to justify spending the extra money to get the E-M5 (please don't list the differences; we've been down that road already; I know the E-M5.1 and .2 are nice cameras). So Olympus was correct in realizing that there wasn't enough differentiation.

When the E-M10.3 came out, I was VERY anxious to upgrade from my E-M10.1 to the .3. But I took one look at the .3 and decided to get a refurb .2 instead. I would have bought an E-M5 except refurb E-M10.2s were readily available (for $300!). So the E-M10.2 continued to steal from my purchasing of an E-M5.

However, I knew very well that my next camera would be an E-M5.3 and I was so anxious for it that I even paid full list price for it when it came out. So the differentiation that Oly wanted worked perfectly for them. I do still use my old E-M10.2, by the way. I have even been tempted somewhat by the E-M10.4, with its nice grip, in-camera charging, and 20mp sensor, but not enough to buy it because I have read how dumbed-down it continues to be.

So there really is a method to Olympus's madness. :)
 
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That's a horrible idea. That would mean E-M10 would take a step forward with features AND price (and people here are saying it should be dumb as a boot --> it would scare away the beginners) and E-M5 would take a giant leap backwards. H*** no!

EDIT: Let's change that "dumb as a boot"-thing to "easy enough for an idiot to use".
However, I guess it would make sense in mass production hardware economics - and then pay for the software you select embedded in them, maybe change the color & body graphics a bit as well
 
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Since the plasticky plastic E-M5iii came out, why not merge the M10 and M5 lines and have a paid upgrade option [from simple M10 menus to proper M5 menus] when the entry level customer feels ready?
But then you would take away the only current-sensor Olympus with a tilt instead of a flip screen, eliminating the main reason I bought one :)
...and you obviosly can't take away the flip screen from the E-M5 line, as it would alienate older E-M5 users.
 

PakkyT

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That would mean E-M10 would take a step forward with features AND price (and people here are saying it should be dumb as a boot --> it would scare away the beginners) and E-M5 would take a giant leap backwards.

I am one of those enthusiasts who didn't see enough differentiation between the E-M10.2 and the E-M5.1 or .2

One of the issues I see is that Olympus and we users have become too entrenched in the 3-line mark 1, 2, 3 concept and that anything new had to fall into one of those. Olympus did step outside those lines twice with the Pen F and the E-M1X (I know it's supposed to be an E-M1 model but really it is its own thing) and both times many people here declared they would not be successful for various reasons (too big (MX1), to expensive (both), etc.). The E-M1X seemed to be successful and while the Pen F didn't sell as well as Oly would have liked (maybe it really was too expensive), it has its fan base.

With OMDS, now that they are free to do so, maybe they should ignore the current lines and any supposed rules that must be followed to belong to each. Next designs should be from scratch. Let features, functionality, processing power, & price point trade offs of a particular model dictate size, materials used, etc. and let that model will be whatever it is. It doesn't need to fit into some "line" rule set. And let users weight the difference between them to decide what they want rather than debating which "line" they should have been part of or not part of.
 
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