Photographers Just Don't Understand.

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GFFPhoto

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Read my previous post. It's nothing to do with me being intimidated (I don't know where you get that idea), but trying to inject some reality into this dream world where some think they can become Cecil B de Milles because they now have a high-fallutin' camera. The skills required to do quality video productions with a 720p camera, or a super 16 film camera, are no different to that required of a 4K camera. It's got nothing to do with the camera or format!
Here is some reality. Read the directors statement. We don't need to go back and forth on an internet forum, this little Italian girl went out and did what you think you can't...

http://dreamsforsalethemovie.com/about/
 

Livnius

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Read my previous post. It's nothing to do with me being intimidated (I don't know where you get that idea), but trying to inject some reality into this dream world where some think they can become Cecil B de Milles because they now have a high-fallutin' camera. The skills required to do quality video productions with a 720p camera, or a super 16 film camera, are no different to that required of a 4K camera. It's got nothing to do with the camera or format!
...and where in this thread has anybody claimed that making a great video is only about the gear?
 

OzRay

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Where in this thread has anybody claimed that buying the GH4 makes anybody a brilliant film maker ?
I've never said brilliant, I've been talking about professional/high quality enthusiast level video outcomes, not getting 4K footage of Little Johnny running around the soccer oval. Please don't cherry pick.
 

OzRay

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Here is some reality. Read the directors statement. We don't need to go back and forth on an internet forum, this little Italian girl went out and did what you think you can't...

http://dreamsforsalethemovie.com/about/
Did you read about all of those involved in the project: http://dreamsforsalethemovie.com/about/? There were at least eleven primary people experienced in film production involved in the project.

Is this the 'little Italian girl'?

Alessadra has a degree in film production and photojournalism from Guildhall University, London. She began her carrier in England as a free-lance photographer, and then made a leap to television. She now lives in the US and works as a free-lance shooter producer on documentaries and reality TV shows. She has recently worked as field producer for “The First 48”, an American documentary television series on A&E, focusing on the real-life world of homicide investigators. She ended up in Coney Island by chance on a breezy summer day of 5 years ago and immediately fell in love with its raffish charm and unforgettable characters. What began as a short film turned into her first feature documentary.
 

Livnius

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Cherry picking ? Really?

Do you think the people on this thread can share their enthusiasm for their cameras without you suggesting that they are all deluded Cecil B De Milles wannabes who are in need of a reality check from you?
 

GFFPhoto

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Did you read about all of those involved in the project: http://dreamsforsalethemovie.com/about/? There were at least eleven primary people experienced in film production involved in the project.
Read the directors statement: "I returned the following day with a cheap camera, little experience, and a lot of enthusiasm. The plan was to shoot a short film over the course of the summer, exploring the quirkiness of this unique amusement park and the reasons for its most recent state of neglect". She did what you can't. Just her and a camera, and it grew into something big and pretty damn good. She picked up a camera and started. And it grew. Just because you can't, it doesn't mean others wont. And she did.
 

piggsy

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Yeah, Danny Boyle said this about shooting 28 Days Later on digital (expensive though) consumer level stuff too -

http://web.archive.org/web/20030802103107/http://www.res.com/magazine/articles/28dayslateraninterviewwithdannyboyle_2003-05-21.html
BOYLE: We storyboarded odd bits occasionally for technical reasons, but I am not a great storyboard fan. I know everyone is different but for me, personally, I much prefer making things up on the day. You can't do that because there are so many people relying on you for decision-making. But you can sort of pretend to know what you are doing and everyone feels confident. But I love leaving things as late as possible. It's very exciting. But the bigger the budget the less you can do -- that's part of the pact with Satan.

RES: What were other benefits of using digital cinematography for this film?

BOYLE: The biggest benefit, to be absolutely honest, was the London sequences, because we would not have been able to afford to do those on celluloid and not only that, they would have been, in their very nature, completely different. If we were working with a celluloid camera, with the number of people you need to operate that, it would have been either much less ambitious or staggeringly expensive, in which case the film would have been very different, in part because we would have had to have a star in it to pay for it.

RES: What about disadvantages?

Boyle: Picture quality, especially on wide shots. We were fortunate; on the whole we got away with it. When you dwell on a wide shot, the human eye is so extraordinary that it goes to where it is interested on that big screen and it zooms in, just like that zoom in on the video game. Halo! If the eye is interested in that picture and if the detail isn't there, it looks a bit ****ty. Whereas on film, you can go in that close and there's enough detail there so it is still acceptable. That's the only major disadvantage. I am not sure if DV would work for period films as there is something completely modern about its feel and about it as a recording or capturing process. If you did a Jane Austin novel or great period piece, I don't know what it would look like; it might feel very odd.

RES: How did you shoot the film's scenes of London emptied of people?

BOYLE: We literally turned up and spent a couple of minutes filming in each place, but with 10 cameras. And we'd choose the angles, set them up very carefully so we knew that when we cut them together it would make you feel like it was rolling on and that you were walking around the city with him and there was no one there. You immediately begin to pull the audience into this strange, new universe really, so when the attacks come, you feel vulnerable as well because you've been lured in.
I was trying to find something on The Celebration (festen) earlier as well and as far as I know that had the same approach - shoot improvised stuff handheld however they could at the time. So, I mean, I guess it helps if you're a genius, and it's not like either of those films were zero preproduction affairs either, but it sure sounds a lot more fun than making some animatics and capturing them exactly :p

But yeah - I kind of feel like a bit of this line of argument was already answered back in 1998/2002 in a way. Those movies already came out and made a crapload of money or picked up a load of awards :D
 

OzRay

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Cherry picking ? Really?

Do you think the people on this thread can share their enthusiasm for their cameras without you suggesting that they are all deluded Cecil B De Milles wannabes who are in need of a reality check from you?
I have no idea where you're getting those ideas from. I have nothing against the cameras whatsoever. My argument is solely based on a misplaced premise that one can just pick up a camera and produce even reasonable video productions. Producing good video is far more difficult than people give credit. I would suggest that producing good video is at least 10x more difficult than producing good photographs. And by good video I mean telling a complete story, not just pointing a camera at a scene and calling it a video.
 

OzRay

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Read the directors statement: "I returned the following day with a cheap camera, little experience, and a lot of enthusiasm. The plan was to shoot a short film over the course of the summer, exploring the quirkiness of this unique amusement park and the reasons for its most recent state of neglect". She did what you can't. Just her and a camera, and it grew into something big and pretty damn good. She picked up a camera and started. And it grew. Just because you can't, it doesn't mean others wont. And she did.
At the end of the day, the outcome was accomplished by a range of people with skills in the field, including her own. It really had nothing to do with equipment.
 

GFFPhoto

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I have no idea where you're getting those ideas from. I have nothing against the cameras whatsoever. My argument is solely based on a misplaced premise that one can just pick up a camera and produce even reasonable video productions. Producing good video is far more difficult than people give credit. I would suggest that producing good video is at least 10x more difficult than producing good photographs. And by good video I mean telling a complete story, not just pointing a camera at a scene and calling it a video.
He gets those ideas from this

trying to inject some reality into this dream world where some think they can become Cecil B de Milles because they now have a high-fallutin' camera.
and the reason I think you seem intimidated is because you keep repeating things like this

My argument is solely based on a misplaced premise that one can just pick up a camera and produce even reasonable video productions. Producing good video is far more difficult than people give credit.
 

GFFPhoto

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At the end of the day, the outcome was accomplished by a range of people with skills in the field, including her own. It really had nothing to do with equipment.
Aww Ray, don't do that. My friend dove in and decided to make a movie by herself, and it grew into a full length documentary with a crew of people because of her hard work. Don't minimize what she did. She did exactly what you say people can't (and to be honest, few of us could pull it off). Give credit where credit is due.
 

OzRay

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He gets those ideas from this

and the reason I think you seem intimidated is because you keep repeating things like this
I've been in the photography game for over 30 years, so I have a small appreciation of the differences between expectations and reality. If things were so easy, then the world would be filled with Ansell Adams', HCBs, Cecil B de Milles, Peter Jackson's and the like; it isn't, so that seems to indicate that equipment may not be the deciding factor on what artistic/skilled/dedicated people can produce.
 

OzRay

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Aww Ray, don't do that. My friend dove in and decided to make a movie by herself, and it grew into a full length documentary with a crew of people because of her hard work. Don't minimize what she did. She did exactly what you say people can't (and to be honest, few of us could pull it off). Give credit where credit is due.
Ask your friend this: 'Did she take up this endeavour because she had a camera, or because she had a cause?'
 

GFFPhoto

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I've been in the photography game for over 30 years, so I have a small appreciation of the differences between expectations and reality. If things were so easy, then the world would be filled with Ansell Adams', HCBs, Cecil B de Milles, Peter Jackson's and the like; it isn't, so that seems to indicate that equipment may not be the deciding factor on what artistic/skilled/dedicated people can produce.
Please quote where anybody in this thread said that equipment was the deciding factor. Anybody.
 

humzai

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Can we all atl least agree on one thing? The White Castle Waffle and Chicken Sandwhich is a great snack to enjoy while reading this thread at midnight? I agree with this of course, and I will also pretend you agree.

The funny thing is that if I had to choose one or the other I would probably choose the E-M1. I also participated in those E-M1 threads and have started some of them myself.

Oh and to the guys saying 4k is soo scary and difficult to process how many of you have actually worked with it?
 

GFFPhoto

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Ask your friend this: 'Did she take up this endeavour because she had a camera, or because she had a cause?'
She had both, along with a belief that she could make a movie. My point was that she wan't intimidated. She didn't say "I wont buy this camera because
Producing good video is far more difficult than people give credit. I would suggest that producing good video is at least 10x more difficult than producing good photographs. And by good video I mean telling a complete story, not just pointing a camera at a scene and calling it a video.
and she didn't say
Very few people have the capability and capacity to produce excellent video
She just went out and did it.
 

OzRay

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Oh and to the guys saying 4k is soo scary and difficult to process how many of you have actually worked with it?
I for one have never said that, other than to point out that it involves more resources than HD. The post-processing procedures will be much the same as for any video file when it comes to editing etc. It's what comes before that, which is most important.
 

kevinparis

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GFFPhoto

do you actually have a GH4 and have you gone through the process of capturing and editing the footage?

Its not clear from your posts

You seem to be under the impression that Ozray and I are somehow against/afraid of 4K.

Nothing could be further from the truth from my perspective - I chose in this thread to take a stance, that builds on my experience of working with video and video formats both privately and professionally. And that stance is that to achieve a final delivered product that the camera is only a small part of the process.

For 10 years from 2000 to 2010 I earned my living working for Apple in Europe in a role that saw me up on stage all across Europe explaining and demonstrating to professional audiences the various iterations of Final Cut, DVD Studio Pro and many other apps. I spent a lot of time setting up machines to demonstrate a variety of formats from DV, through HDV, Uncompressed HD, MPEG, H264. In other words I do have a reasonably deep understanding of video, video formats and the related technical requirements in order to work with the footage

I know I have been out of that industry for 4 years professionally but I do still keep up with what is going on, and while technologies have advanced they have not advanced that much. The issues around the best file format for capture, for editing and for delivery still exist, still have gotchas even in regular HD that can eat up computing power, time and disk space very rapidly if you are not aware of what you are doing. I don't see how 4K can do anything but multiply those problems.

The GH4 is undoubtedly an amazing camera, and 4K files obviously have some advantages - but I remain to be convinced that for the average hobbyist it is something that should be high up the list of priorities

Cheers

K
 
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