pen f price competition

[heli-mech]

Just brainstorming as an embedded software engineer:

Put a 2 gigabit memory cache and enough internal hardware to read at 100+ FPS on the sensor die. Or 8 capacitor cells for each pixel, so you can snap 8 shots at any shutter speed.

It might explain why the thing is so freaking expensive.

Not going to do the internet thing and pretend that I understand the majority of what you just said though I get the jist. However it seems a foregone conclusion that this camera will use the new Sony 20MP sensor which is capable of only 1/30s readout. So for handheld hires to work the ibis would need to hold the sensor within half a pixel for a minimum of 8/30s. Remembering that the sensor reads top to bottom in that 1/30s so the ibis would have to be compensating as the sensor reads out each line(or groups of lines) of each exposure .

 

[tyrphoto]

The Pen-F's direct competition, IMO, will be the recently announced Fuji X-Pro2 if the pricing on the Pen-F holds up to be around $1500 mark give or take.

I have to say, based on everything I've seen or read on the X-Pro2, I'm mightily impressed. We'll have to wait a bit more to see what the Pen-F brings to the table. I'm actually blown away by the improvements they've added to the X-Pro2.

As it is now, unless the Pen-F blows me away, my wallet will be headed to the Fuji dealer.

 

[zensu]

Not going to do the internet thing and pretend that I understand the majority of what you just said though I get the jist. However it seems a foregone conclusion that this camera will use the new Sony 20MP sensor which is capable of only 1/30s readout. So for handheld hires to work the ibis would need to hold the sensor within half a pixel for a minimum of 8/30s. Remembering that the sensor reads top to bottom in that 1/30s so the ibis would have to be compensating as the sensor reads out each line(or groups of lines) of each exposure .

I'm not a technical person either but what you posted sounds logical. Apparently we'll have to wait for a "Global Shutter" to be able to get hand held high res? We should have heard rumors about this huge advance in technology by now if it's in production. Like I said I'm not a technical person but the global shutter would put mirrorless cameras in a new game changing league. Maybe they'll have it ready for the E-M1 mk II?

 

[Turbofrog]

Not going to do the internet thing and pretend that I understand the majority of what you just said though I get the jist. However it seems a foregone conclusion that this camera will use the new Sony 20MP sensor which is capable of only 1/30s readout. So for handheld hires to work the ibis would need to hold the sensor within half a pixel for a minimum of 8/30s. Remembering that the sensor reads top to bottom in that 1/30s so the ibis would have to be compensating as the sensor reads out each line(or groups of lines) of each exposure .

Rather than keeping the sensor still for 8/30s, since the sensor is moving to make the pixel array, the challenge is to improve the readout speed to be 1/30*8, or 1/240s. Much more challenging!

I guess it might be possible to combine the inputs. That would be a feat...

 

[oly.sol]

The Pen-F's direct competition, IMO, will be the recently announced Fuji X-Pro2 if the pricing on the Pen-F holds up to be around $1500 mark give or take.

I have to say, based on everything I've seen or read on the X-Pro2, I'm mightily impressed. We'll have to wait a bit more to see what the Pen-F brings to the table. I'm actually blown away by the improvements they've added to the X-Pro2.

As it is now, unless the Pen-F blows me away, my wallet will be headed to the Fuji dealer.

tech-wise, i think the pro 2 is the comp, but fuji already have the lead in that market, imo. to catch up, i don't think oly can simply release a competitor. you've got to offer something unique and useful. i don't think the pen f is going to be able to do that. what the pen f *can* do is convince undecided buyers and perhaps win over folks looking to get their feet wet in the mirrorless pool, i.e. folks that looking at something like the xe2s. as i mentioned earlier, the fuji lenses makes the x system that much stronger as a proposition. going head to head seems like a mistake to me. for example, i love oly, moved to it from ff and apsc sony gear. if weather sealing were really important to me, i'd be shooting fuji right now. now i'm committed to oly and can just wait until weather sealing is just basic to interchangeable lens cameras.

i'm sure oly has done lots of market research and know what they're doing, but i still think this price point is a problem. but maybe oly doesn't see the pen line as a major seller...perhaps more of the luxury item. perhaps they intend to push the em line for revenue. i don't know.

 

[heli-mech]

Rather than keeping the sensor still for 8/30s, since the sensor is moving to make the pixel array, the challenge is to improve the readout speed to be 1/30*8, or 1/240s. Much more challenging!

I guess it might be possible to combine the inputs. That would be a feat...

Meant still relative to the sensors required position for each of the 8 shots.

 

[oldracer]

Just brainstorming as an embedded software engineer ... 2 gigabit memory ... read at 100+ FPS on the sensor die. Or 8 capacitor cells for each pixel ...

Pretty much impossible with today's technology (I used to be in the integrated circuit business). Silicon area is already huge; adding memory and logic could easily drive yields to near zero and costs to the moon. 8 cells/pixel while still holding pixel density would require a prohibitive number of layers with the same effect on yield. Too bad, though. Saving multiple images right on the sensor would certainly open up lots of options.

Re pricing, to me initially pricing it to compete with the GX8 makes sense. Features should be similar and it appears to be about 10% shorter and narrower. That's a lot. Next question will be battery life, as without the GX8-style grip bulge there is probably less space for the battery.

 

[drd1135]

Just noting: there is quite a range of opinions in this thread. The only one thing we all seem to agree on is that we'd like the F to be cheaper.

 

[Turbofrog]

tech-wise, i think the pro 2 is the comp, but fuji already have the lead in that market, imo. to catch up, i don't think oly can simply release a competitor. you've got to offer something unique and useful. i don't think the pen f is going to be able to do that. what the pen f *can* do is convince undecided buyers and perhaps win over folks looking to get their feet wet in the mirrorless pool, i.e. folks that looking at something like the xe2s. as i mentioned earlier, the fuji lenses makes the x system that much stronger as a proposition. going head to head seems like a mistake to me. for example, i love oly, moved to it from ff and apsc sony gear. if weather sealing were really important to me, i'd be shooting fuji right now. now i'm committed to oly and can just wait until weather sealing is just basic to interchangeable lens cameras.

i'm sure oly has done lots of market research and know what they're doing, but i still think this price point is a problem. but maybe oly doesn't see the pen line as a major seller...perhaps more of the luxury item. perhaps they intend to push the em line for revenue. i don't know.

I'm confused. M4/3 has 10 weather sealed lenses. Fuji has 7. M4/3 has 6 weather sealed bodies. Fuji has 2. How does Fuji have the edge in weather sealing as a basic aspect of their system?

And how is the XE2S, which is a direct competitor to the GX7 and maybe E-M5 II, raising the bar in any meaningful way?

I guess I'm just confused as to what the major advantages Fuji has right now. It's a nice enough system, and as competition has a few advantages and a few disadvantages. Very little to tip the balance meaningfully in either direction if you've got the same amount of money to put into a system.

 

[dornblaser]

@tyrphoto I was surprised by your comparison of the PEN F to the X-Pro2 as the X-Pro2 is Fuji's flagship body. I was thinking the X100x might be a better comparison.

 

[redacted-user]

@tyrphoto I was surprised by your comparison of the PEN F to the X-Pro2 as the X-Pro2 is Fuji's flagship body. I was thinking the X100x might be a better comparison.

I said that in my first reply to this thread. Given the price-point and presumed feature spec, that makes the most sense. The X100 isn't a real competitor as it doesn't have an interchangeable lens.

I think they've priced the PEN-F intentionally high to appeal to a niche audience. I haven't seen the price on the new X-Pro2 yet, but I think they're targeting that as their competition, not the lesser XE2S.

I don't think this will have the previously rumored "global shutter" tech. It's not ready yet, their prototype was a 2MP proof-of-concept. Oly did say they were working on hand-held hires mode, but I'd be very surprised if we see it here. Even more surprised if they managed some kind of pixel cache. I am preparing myself to be surprised.

 

[skellington]

Pretty much impossible .... Silicon area is already huge; adding memory and logic could easily drive yields to near zero and costs to the moon. 8 cells/pixel while still holding pixel density would require a prohibitive number of layers with the same effect on yield.

I see this reference which might be awesome: Olympus sensor w. global shutter and 10,000 fps: Photographic Science and Technology Forum: Digital Photography Review

And they do make full frame sensors with basically 4x as much silicon, at somewhat comparable densities, so a bigger die is possible (although perhaps expensive.)

A full frame sized piece of silicon with 1/4 as many photo receptors and twice as many capacitors to store data seems plausible to me. It wouldn't be as fast as a global shutter perhaps, but you'd just have to shift out the data for the frame, not actually do an A/D conversion.

I hope we do have an awesome advance in the sensor. I want to buy a refurbished one in 2 years.

 

[tyrphoto]

The Pen-F, supposedly being a camera that's $1500 or thereabouts, is inline with the X-Pro2's $1700 price tag. If the Pen-F does get priced at $1500, that would make it Olympus' most expensive body. Would price alone make it the flagship of Olympus? Not sure, but for Olympus to sell that idea onto the general public as well as enthusiasts/pros, they would need to instill it with specs that exceed any of the current OM-D models and/or new features not currently available.

Since the Pen-F will be an ILC, I don't think it would be comparable to an X100(x) camera.

Anyways, that's my reasoning.

@tyrphoto I was surprised by your comparison of the PEN F to the X-Pro2 as the X-Pro2 is Fuji's flagship body. I was thinking the X100x might be a better comparison.

 

[dornblaser]

Thanks for the explanation. Mentally I compare the X-Pro's to the E-M1 and GH4.

 

[oly.sol]

I'm confused. M4/3 has 10 weather sealed lenses. Fuji has 7. M4/3 has 6 weather sealed bodies. Fuji has 2. How does Fuji have the edge in weather sealing as a basic aspect of their system?

And how is the XE2S, which is a direct competitor to the GX7 and maybe E-M5 II, raising the bar in any meaningful way?

I guess I'm just confused as to what the major advantages Fuji has right now. It's a nice enough system, and as competition has a few advantages and a few disadvantages. Very little to tip the balance meaningfully in either direction if you've got the same amount of money to put into a system.

i think we have to be a little more realistic. the question isn't simply weather sealing, right? i don't think many folks interested in old-school rangefinder style bodies are going to want to mount an oly pro lens to a pen body. pen buyers are probably going to want the small metal primes that aren't sealed. if i'm in the market for a rangefinder experience and i need weather sealing, then i'm going w/ a fuji, because they have several sealed lenses that match the bodies. looks might not be important to everyone, but these cameras are clearly marketed to folks who a looking for a certain look and experience.

re the xe2s, it has an edge here because it costs less than half the purported price of the pen f. the xe2 is already a perfectly capable camera so i assume the 2s will be, too. i can't think of a way that the xe2s would hold anyone back compared w/ what we think we know about hte pen f and i can't think of any features the pen might have that would truly be a game changer unless it's packing some video feature. in that sense, like it or not, the xe2s is a competitor w/ the pen f...comp in the sense that buyers are likely to look at the fuji line, too. a great camera from less than half the price means oly is in the position of making a case for why you should spend significantly more. and given fuji's standing, that's an uphill fight for oly.

i guess what i'm thinking is that oly and panasonic are mainly in competition w/ sony and fuji in terms of mirrorless cameras, and fuji and sony seem to have a lead. to catch up, i think oly needs to be offering not just a comparable product, but something superior for a similar price or something comparable or better for less. a head to head match up in a market dominated by specs numbers put m43 at an inherent disadvantage.

on the other hand, maybe oly knows exactly who they're aiming for and fuji, sony, et cetera aren't really factors for them. maybe they're doing they're own thing, oly that is, and they're happy with that.

 

[LowriderS10]

This is exactly the point--amazing images can be obtained from OMDs already on the market. I would rmuch rather spend that money on lenses.

If they are marketing towards first time buyers, I still don't think it's compact enough to appeal to a casual or first-time user, nor are they likely to pay that much for it.

We'll all have to wait and see on the specs.

Agreed...I'm really not seeing the market on this one. First time buyers, M4/3 owners, other mirrorless/DSLR owners...I can't see any of them being really excited about getting the Pen F...

 

[drd1135]

Just on format, the F will compete with the XPro2 and the GX8, whereas the OM are against the XT1/10 and GH4/G7.

 

[Turbofrog]

i think we have to be a little more realistic. the question isn't simply weather sealing, right? i don't think many folks interested in old-school rangefinder style bodies are going to want to mount an oly pro lens to a pen body. pen buyers are probably going to want the small metal primes that aren't sealed. if i'm in the market for a rangefinder experience and i need weather sealing, then i'm going w/ a fuji, because they have several sealed lenses that match the bodies. looks might not be important to everyone, but these cameras are clearly marketed to folks who a looking for a certain look and experience.

re the xe2s, it has an edge here because it costs less than half the purported price of the pen f. the xe2 is already a perfectly capable camera so i assume the 2s will be, too. i can't think of a way that the xe2s would hold anyone back compared w/ what we think we know about hte pen f and i can't think of any features the pen might have that would truly be a game changer unless it's packing some video feature. in that sense, like it or not, the xe2s is a competitor w/ the pen f...comp in the sense that buyers are likely to look at the fuji line, too. a great camera from less than half the price means oly is in the position of making a case for why you should spend significantly more. and given fuji's standing, that's an uphill fight for oly.

i guess what i'm thinking is that oly and panasonic are mainly in competition w/ sony and fuji in terms of mirrorless cameras, and fuji and sony seem to have a lead. to catch up, i think oly needs to be offering not just a comparable product, but something superior for a similar price or something comparable or better for less. a head to head match up in a market dominated by specs numbers put m43 at an inherent disadvantage.

on the other hand, maybe oly knows exactly who they're aiming for and fuji, sony, et cetera aren't really factors for them. maybe they're doing they're own thing, oly that is, and they're happy with that.

I guess we just look at this from different angles.

Leicas and other rangefinders historically aren't weather sealed, and weather-sealed primes are uncommon simply because if you are a prime-only shooter it's typically assumed that you might change a lens once or twice over the course of the day. At which point you are intentionally unsealing your camera. I can see the utility for niche cases, but the 12-35mm/f2.8 is smaller and lighter than the 16mm/1.4 WR, for instance. It would be nice to have a lens like the 35mm/f2 WR - a weather-sealed 20mm/1.7 would be lovely - but that's a brand new lens and the only one that I can see that fits the marketing you're referring to.

The X-E2s is the same camera as the X-E2, it just has a firmware update preinstalled. There's nothing new or special about it. And the X-E2 was not a definitive step up from the GX7 or E-M5 (mark 1) that it competed against two years ago, so I don't see why the same camera with a new label would be any different. Neither the X-E2 nor X-E2s are weathersealed either.

Personally I consider the lack of a touchscreen to be a dealbreaker, and the lack of IBIS to be a big strike. Both of those are huge usability improvements to my mind. M4/3 as a system is the only one that seems to be committed to both. Image quality wise we can talk about until the cows come home. I don't consider the 16MP Fuji sensors to be any better than the current 16MP M4/3 sensors, but I do imagine that the new 24MP XPro2 sensor will be a nice improvement. But depending on what the 20MP sensor in the PEN F is like, there's a very real chance that it would produce better image quality than the older Fuji sensor in the X-E2s.

I'm not trying to sound overly defensive here, I just feel like there's this default assumption that M4/3 is behind Fuji, and I really don't see it in the images that come out of the cameras. I can agree with the A7 series, but the Fuji X-Trans sensors seem like a big compromise to me.

 

[oly.sol]

yeah, i agree we're just coming at this from diff angles. i'm less interested in the technology, in this case, and more interested in what buyers are going to be presented with. that's why i think the xe2 is interesting. i don't think it's a better camera or that x system is a better system--i shoot oly and could have bought fuji instead--but someone considering whether or not to spend 1500 or 600-700 might likely choose the xe2. price alone makes that a powerful argument.

history isn't much of a factor here, imo. folks will have a choice--either a rangefinder style body that is weather sealed and w/ matching lenses or one that isn't. that's a choice folks have to make now even if they haven't historically. what is historically relevant is that fuji is moving more high end cameras. and their users seem to be very happy...as happy as i am w/ my oly kit.

i just fear oly is pricing the f in such a way that other system might look more attractive. i guess we'll get to see what happens w/ the release. i hope it's a hit.

I guess we just look at this from different angles.

Leicas and other rangefinders historically aren't weather sealed, and weather-sealed primes are uncommon simply because if you are a prime-only shooter it's typically assumed that you might change a lens once or twice over the course of the day. At which point you are intentionally unsealing your camera. I can see the utility for niche cases, but the 12-35mm/f2.8 is smaller and lighter than the 16mm/1.4 WR, for instance. It would be nice to have a lens like the 35mm/f2 WR - a weather-sealed 20mm/1.7 would be lovely - but that's a brand new lens and the only one that I can see that fits the marketing you're referring to.

The X-E2s is the same camera as the X-E2, it just has a firmware update preinstalled. There's nothing new or special about it. And the X-E2 was not a definitive step up from the GX7 or E-M5 (mark 1) that it competed against two years ago, so I don't see why the same camera with a new label would be any different. Neither the X-E2 nor X-E2s are weathersealed either.

Personally I consider the lack of a touchscreen to be a dealbreaker, and the lack of IBIS to be a big strike. Both of those are huge usability improvements to my mind. M4/3 as a system is the only one that seems to be committed to both. Image quality wise we can talk about until the cows come home. I don't consider the 16MP Fuji sensors to be any better than the current 16MP M4/3 sensors, but I do imagine that the new 24MP XPro2 sensor will be a nice improvement. But depending on what the 20MP sensor in the PEN F is like, there's a very real chance that it would produce better image quality than the older Fuji sensor in the X-E2s.

I'm not trying to sound overly defensive here, I just feel like there's this default assumption that M4/3 is behind Fuji, and I really don't see it in the images that come out of the cameras. I can agree with the A7 series, but the Fuji X-Trans sensors seem like a big compromise to me.

 

[Benzy]

The reported price of this is through the roof IMO. I've been waiting for the E-M1ii, and am now predicting that will be even more, probably $1699 like the new Fuji. That is too much for me.

Cant really justify spending that amount of cash when the less expensive E-M5ii is pretty dang full featured and there's not a significant improvement to the 20 mp sensor for my usage.