Panasonic too?!?

[John M Flores]

Big companies create sub-brands which are easy to divest because they don't engdanger the main brand even if the buyer slaps that name on outright trash and good brand will always have some value even if the business itself becomes an underperformer.

I'm a marketer. That's not the only reason to create a sub brand. A sub brand enables a marketer to establish a set of brand attributes distinct and unique from the main brand while also capturing some of the halo effect of the parent brand.

To the photography community, "Lumix" means something more specific than "Panasonic" does. IBM (and now Lenovo) did the same thing with ThinkPad - the sub brand Thinkpad immediately conjures up qualities (professional, quality, performance, sleek black look) that the parent brand does not necessarily embody in it's brand identity.

Likewise Samsung Galaxy, Toyota Prius, and Panasonic with its own Toughbook line of computers.

To suggest that sub brands are simply insurance policies against failure is an overly simplistic view of the situation.

 

[BDR-529]

See the end of the box. It's also the largest type on the camera's model tag on the bottom.

If you don't mind I'll look at the camera and charger instead.

They both have a very large name printed on the faceplate.

 

[BDR-529]

To suggest that sub brands are simply insurance policies against failure is an overly simplistic view of the situation.

Funny that you mentioned "ThinkPad" just before that statement ? Now, does anybody remember what happened to IBM's professional laptop brand?

But yes, you are of course correct. Damage control is just the flip side of the coin. If the brand becomes a success story, parent company can sell it at extremely high profit too.

No major company is planning to stay in any given business forever. They will create it, make it grow and then squeeze all possible profit out of it buy listing or selling it. It makes perfect sense to prepare for this from the very beginning.

 

[JonSnih]

Viewer expectations of quality are rising, and anyone with over 30,000 subscribers on YouTube is thinking a lot about what gear they need to make the leap to 100,000 and taking some of their ad revenue and pouring it back into gear.

John, I follow a channel with 2.47 M subs, they shoot 1080@60p with FF gear from begining and grow slowly. Their video production is top notch. This video quallity obsession on YT is on a par with FF stills quallity hunt in cameras (form over content). If content, video cut, music... is there you dont have to be worry about extra resolution. Sometimes a better codec does wonders. I guess that 2K/2.5K is more than enough even for the future - especially if viewed on a smarphone.

 

[John M Flores]

Funny that you mentioned "ThinkPad" just before that statement ? Now, does anybody remember with happened to IBM's professional laptop brand?

But yes, you are of course correct. Damage control is just the flip side of the coin. If the brand becomes a success story, parent company can sell it at extremely high profit too.

ThinkPad was a successful brand under IBM. They sold it because they were getting out of the hardware business and focusing more of solutions and professional services. This was a seismic shift in IBM's fundamental business strategy and the Thinkpad line no longer fit their new business model. Look at their website today - not a single computer to be purchased.

From what I understand, Lenovo has done quite well with the ThinkPad brand - it's perhaps the most recognized and well-regarded brand after Apple's MacBook and likely ahead of XPS (Dell), Sceptre (HP), Envy (HP) and others in terms of brand recognition and recall.

 

[RS86]

Color me surprised. Now that we got GH5 Mark II and information of GH6 coming later this year, the M43 Doom & Gloom strikes back in that Panasonic will stop camera production altogether.

It was an interesting point made by Darmok N Jalad here, that this rumour source came earlier than Panasonic's announcement, and the rumour site went on with it later.

Pretty bad timing for the rumour site, as before Panasonic's announcements and firmware upgrades this would have sent most M43 users panicking, and they would have got huge amount of clicks.

 

[Brownie]

If you don't mind I'll look at the camera and charger instead.

They both have a very large name printed on the faceplate.

No, that's fine. Spin it any way you like.

Hey, buddy...who makes Nikon?

Nikon.

Who makes Olympus?

Olympus.

Who makes Canon?

Canon.

Who makes Lumix?

Panasonic.

 

[D7k1]

Funny that you mentioned "ThinkPad" just before that statement ? Now, does anybody remember what happened to IBM's professional laptop brand?

But yes, you are of course correct. Damage control is just the flip side of the coin. If the brand becomes a success story, parent company can sell it at extremely high profit too.

No major company is planning to stay in any given business forever. They will create it, make it grow and then squeeze all possible profit out of it buy listing or selling it. It makes perfect sense to prepare for this from the very beginning.

Doesn't sound like you know much about business. I retired at 55 being a marketer and a business owner. You've got it all wrong. Businesses develop expertise in specific fields and that becomes their USP as well as competitive long term advantage. That is why non-competition contracts are signed by those who know how the company builds and use their competitive advantage. I'm done with this thread as you are either ignorant of how successful businesses are run or you have a bone to pick with Panasonic. Have a nice day. BTW Panasonic is using the G9 as a cash cow and establishing a long term goal of long releases between totally new cameras so that profitability runs over the life of a product after R&D is returned.

 

[Aristophanes]

YouTube has largely replaced cable TV, not for same-same content, but for viewer attention time.

If you’re a digital imaging manufacturer not making product for that segment and its production requirements, you are in trouble.

Is there room between smartphone “true” amateur content creation and FF for this critical segment? Hard to say, especially for ILC. That’s why Panny went FF. They had no choice. The GH5 II, keeps it afloat. G100 tries to slot in.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Funny that you mentioned "ThinkPad" just before that statement ? Now, does anybody remember what happened to IBM's professional laptop brand?

But yes, you are of course correct. Damage control is just the flip side of the coin. If the brand becomes a success story, parent company can sell it at extremely high profit too.

No major company is planning to stay in any given business forever. They will create it, make it grow and then squeeze all possible profit out of it buy listing or selling it. It makes perfect sense to prepare for this from the very beginning.

ThinkPad was a successful brand under IBM. They sold it because they were getting out of the hardware business and focusing more of solutions and professional services. This was a seismic shift in IBM's fundamental business strategy and the Thinkpad line no longer fit their new business model. Look at their website today - not a single computer to be purchased.

From what I understand, Lenovo has done quite well with the ThinkPad brand - it's perhaps the most recognized and well-regarded brand after Apple's MacBook and likely ahead of XPS (Dell), Sceptre (HP), Envy (HP) and others in terms of brand recognition and recall.

I think you might both be getting at the same thing, just from opposite ends. A company makes a brand for product segmentation and consumer recognition, and if they can bring enough value to the brand, the brand (and design) can have so much value that it can be sold. IBM left the PC business, but Lenovo has had no trouble still selling Thinkpads, as they kept the same good design for business-class hardware, and demand is clearly still there. Similar situation with Dodge. You can’t buy a Dodge anymore, but “RAM” was such a powerful brand that FCA kept it alive. Then again, MS bought Nokia and turned the Lumia brand to garbage.

Panasonic could totally sell LUMIX to someone else, but until then, it‘s synonymous with Panasonic. One could argue that of all the ILC companies, Panasonic is in the best position to make a brand sale. OMD Solutions has to figure out what to do with their camera faceplates as time goes on, and so would Nikon, Fuji, Canon, or Sony. Not sure it means all that much though, since LUMIX may not have enough recognition to be of much value in a shrinking market.

 

[fortwodriver]

Pretty bad timing for the rumour site, as before Panasonic's announcements and firmware upgrades this would have sent most M43 users panicking, and they would have got huge amount of clicks.

But that's just it... It's just a random rumour blog. Pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. They seem to post the same dire warning about m43 every 2 years or so. Who really cares what they post? Other bloggers looking for click-bait traffic, that's who.

 

[BDR-529]

But that's just it... It's just a random rumour blog. Pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Just remember that facts remain facts even if they are mentioned in a rumour.

Panasonic did just nominate a new CEO in April and Panasonic is going through a major reorganization where Panasonic proper will turn into a holding company. These are facts.

What used to be Business Units of Panasonic proper will now move to "indipendent" companies. The purpose of this reorg is to support the standing policy of selling or shutting down unprofitable/non-growth product lines so that resources can be allocated to more profitable ones.

It is also true that consumer cameras aka LUMIX will end up in a pretty awkward company together with products that have been in the red for years and don't have much growth potential as part of Panasonic.

What this implies is anyones guess but the rumour part starts only here.

 

[John M Flores]

Just remember that facts remain facts even if they are mentioned in a rumour.

Panasonic did just nominate a new CEO in April and Panasonic is going through a major reorganization where Panasonic proper will turn into a holding company. These are facts.

What used to be Business Units of Panasonic proper will now move to "indipendent" companies.

This is where the facts end and the opinions begin.

The purpose of this reorg is to support the standing policy of selling or shutting down unprofitable/non-growth product lines so that resources can be allocated to more profitable ones.

It is also true that consumer cameras aka LUMIX will end up in a pretty awkward company together with products that have been in the red for years and don't have much growth potential as part of Panasonic.

What this implies is anyones guess but the rumour part starts only here.

 

[BDR-529]

This is where the facts end and the opinions begin.

No it's not. Panasonic has created impressive amout of material for shareholders explaining the purpose of this reorganization and they have even released the new holding company structure.

The only thing open to speculation is the implication of moving LUMIX products in same company together with known underperformers.

Panny has never even reported them separately. Consumer cameras have been just one part of Appliances so nobody knows whether they have been profitable or not.

This is where rumours kick in.

 

[fortwodriver]

This is where rumours kick in.

If these were investor rumours I'd pay a bit more attention. However, these are blogger rumours. There is no relationship between the blogger and management, or any worker really, at Panasonic.

 

[John M Flores]

No it's not. Panasonic has created impressive amout of material for shareholders explaining the purpose of this reorganization and they have even released the new holding company structure.

The only thing open to speculation is the implication of moving LUMIX products in same company together with known underperformers.

Panny has never even reported them separately. Consumer cameras have been just one part of Appliances so nobody knows whether they have been profitable or not.

This is where rumours kick in.

Please show me in their shareholder docs where they explicitly state that they plan on "selling or shutting down unprofitable/non-growth product lines"

 

[itisasitis]

No it's not. Panasonic has created impressive amout of material for shareholders explaining the purpose of this reorganization and they have even released the new holding company structure.

The only thing open to speculation is the implication of moving LUMIX products in same company together with known underperformers.

Panny has never even reported them separately. Consumer cameras have been just one part of Appliances so nobody knows whether they have been profitable or not.

This is where rumours kick in.

I seem to be one of few here who legit agrees with your way of thinking/reasoning as more than rumors.

Found some interesting information in the FY2021 report - https://www.panasonic.com/global/corporate/ir/pdf/annual/2020/pana_ar2020e.pdf . Below are facts, not opinions (although you could of course consider them to be taken out of context or not representing the full picture - I don't think they are).
- Appliances is the largest of four business segments, 2021 sales of ~USD 24 billion
- Appliances is broken down into a number of sub-segments (and these even further) but none of these, if you go by name, really has anything to do with cameras, imaging etc.
- In Appliances, sales decreased 6%, "declining overall as a result of struggling sales of TVs and digital cameras primarily in Europe, and the impact of COVID-19, despite increased sales of air conditioners in Asia"

My opinion:
Digital cameras is explicitly stated as a product area with struggling sales. My guess is that digital cameras sales are all but negligible. Let's just say that I wouldn't be surprised if a divestment of what is under the LUMIX umbrella is announced when the reorganization is fully implemented, granted that they can find a buyer of course. I would also not be surprised to learn that they are actively looking for a buyer as we speak. Purely shutting down the product area doesn't make intuitive sense to me considering the announcement of future products, but that is just my opinion.

I don't think this is doom and gloom reasoning, but that is my opinion. Considering that this is a camera forum with lots of passionate/more or less heavily invested Panasonic users, it's not surprising that some see this in a different way that I do. That's totally cool and fine because, you know, opinions. But I personally don't think it's realistic to expect that cameras would somehow receive preferential treatment by Panasonic just because they are cameras.

And I'll end with a fact: my G9, GX9, GX800 and all the lenses I own won't automatically stop working or produce worse images if Panasonic kills off or divests their digital cameras business

 

[GBarrington]

If this is true, it won't matter to me, personally. I'm old enough that my future gear acquisition days are somewhat limited. Though I might buy some of that used gear some of you seem to want to dump! Got anything "lust worthy" you need to unload?

But as I've said elsewhere, I think m43s still has a lot to offer the photographic community. I just hope circumstances allow it.

 

[BDR-529]

My opinion:
Digital cameras is explicitly stated as a product area with struggling sales. My guess is that digital cameras sales are all but negligible. Let's just say that I wouldn't be surprised if a divestment of what is under the LUMIX umbrella is announced when the reorganization is fully implemented, granted that they can find a buyer of course.

Problems during Corona are a fact but since it was an unexpected force majeure, declining sales during such times would not give reason to axe LUMIX cameras if they have been profitable earlier but there's no evidence that this has been the case.

For all that we know, consumer cameras could have been profitable even in 2020 if declining revenue came from high end models which have high profit margin (OK I don't believe in this but in theory it's possible). Panny has never reported revenue and profitability of LUMIX products separately so it's hard to tell. They could even see a reasonable growth potential if high-end demands shifts towards video where Panasonic has become an industry standard but this is pretty much the best scenario there is.

Anyways it's promising that Panny has invested in entirely new 4/3 camera sensor so chanches are that LUMIX is not in immediate danger before top brass finds out what impact new models will have but 4% market share and sales of 0,3 million units per year is not a sustainable state for consumer products which need constant investments in new technology, models and features..

I will certainly have a look at GH6 but with $2500€ price tag it will be a hard sale in a world where I could buy a S5 for 1400€ today and use 1100€ to kick-start a new lens portfolio.

 

[doady]

Even before the microchip shortage, improvements to cameras were already slowing, and the cameras were already more than good enough. There isn't much better than what we already have, and we don't need better than what we already have to begin with. Lower sales volume was to be expected, and I think that the reason full frame is being pushed so hard. They can't increase the efficiency, so people try to promote increased size. But what next? Medium format? Large format? Just totally backwards. It was same thing with computers, with upgrades becoming less and less frequent, and less and less necessary, and the computers got smaller and smaller over time. Smaller form factor and more stability, that is true progress. So I think more stability in the camera market is a good sign also. Just be happy what you have and ignore all the full frame marketing hype and that backwards "bigger is always better" mentality and the doom and gloom that comes along with it.