Panasonic product announcement 7 April

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DanS

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I think that paper actually tends to support that HLG is superior to V-log L, no? At least in terms of having superior dynamic range.
You have to take this into account, when you look at the dynamic range.
Note that these figures are a little speculative and subjective: it is up to the user to decide whether the performance at the extreme ends of the dynamic range are acceptable, thus there is an uncertainty of about 1 stops in all these results.
As I mentioned the devil is in the details, you have to look at the gamma curves, knee, nose, internal camera settings, etc etc.

Since HLG is designed to be a delivery format, Panasonic is doing more internal processing. For example Panasonic does a lot of NR in body for HLG, so a lot of times the shadows are soft. V-Log is closer to raw, in that you get more to work with in post, including noise. This is why a lot of people over expose V-Log by 1 to 2 stops as a rule of thumb, so that in post the noise in the shadows will be crushed.


The simplest way to think of it, is that V Log (or any of the log formats) is designed to offer more leeway in post, while HDR is designed to be left as is out of the camera.
 

Turbofrog

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You have to take this into account, when you look at the dynamic range.


As I mentioned the devil is in the details, you have to look at the gamma curves, knee, nose, internal camera settings, etc etc.

Since HLG is designed to be a delivery format, Panasonic is doing more internal processing. For example Panasonic does a lot of NR in body for HLG, so a lot of times the shadows are soft. V-Log is closer to raw, in that you get more to work with in post, including noise. This is why a lot of people over expose V-Log by 1 to 2 stops as a rule of thumb, so that in post the noise in the shadows will be crushed.


The simplest way to think of it, is that V Log (or any of the log formats) is designed to offer more leeway in post, while HDR is designed to be left as is out of the camera.
Fair enough, good points all around.

Still, I imagine that for most G95 users (who are less likely to be paid professionals wading into a long process of grading), HLG is definitely the tool to use if it offers good results "out of the box."

Having seen what I've seen so far, I can't imagine using V-log L as an amateur, but HLG seems quite attractive.

But I guess for those taking B-roll with a G95 and using it alongside a GH5s and just want to be able to throw the same LUT at the images, having V-log L could be useful to have. That of course assumes the G95 will have 10-bit recording, though, which seems a bit dubious.
 

DanS

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Fair enough, good points all around.

Still, I imagine that for most G95 users (who are less likely to be paid professionals wading into a long process of grading), HLG is definitely the tool to use if it offers good results "out of the box."

Having seen what I've seen so far, I can't imagine using V-log L as an amateur, but HLG seems quite attractive.

But I guess for those taking B-roll with a G95 and using it alongside a GH5s and just want to be able to throw the same LUT at the images, having V-log L could be useful to have. That of course assumes the G95 will have 10-bit recording, though, which seems a bit dubious.
I Perosnally don't use it, but V-log is a lot harder to work with. A lot of people that do will tell you that waveforms or false color is all but mandatory. That's one of the reasons why so many video people loved the fact that the GH5 came with LUT and waveform support. They no longer had to have an Atomos recorder.

It better be 10 bit, as almost anyone that used V-log on the GH4 (8-bit), would tell you that it's crap. If memory serves HLG must be 10 bit.
 
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So on the one hand, I like the specs, and I love that it's coming with a new weather-sealed version of the 14-140 II...

...but it sounds like it won't be shipping until May 23, which dashes any hopes I had of purchasing one before my big trip. I don't really know what to do anymore. It sounds like this is the camera I want for my next camera, and springing for the G9 or E-M1 II is a bunch of extra money I don't want to spend. But it also seems silly to buy a $1000 camera after going on a 2-month trip...
You can always buy ON your 2 month trip. Souvenir!
 

Turbofrog

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You can always buy ON your 2 month trip. Souvenir!
My guess is that Malysian Borneo and Indonesia are not likely the first markets to get brand new mirrorless cameras, sadly!

Maybe by the time I'm in Australia, but even then, I think Alice Springs is not the first place Panasonic thinks of when selling cameras...
 
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My guess is that Malysian Borneo and Indonesia are not likely the first markets to get brand new mirrorless cameras, sadly!

Maybe by the time I'm in Australia, but even then, I think Alice Springs is not the first place Panasonic thinks of when selling cameras...
Do you need a porter for your trip? I can help carry all of that heavy mft gear for you.
 

Telonson

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Free V-Log?

Maybe 8 bit V-Log, but can't imagine it will be 10 bit high bitrate, All-I V-Log unless the camera is priced near the GH5.

V-Log is a minefield for inexperienced users, which may be half the reason Panasonic splits it out into a separate purchase on the GH5. By building it in, many will activate it because it's the highest quality mode, resulting in great disappointment with the unusable imagery. And if it's 8-bit V-Log and not 10-bit, the learning curve will be even steeper.

If Panasonic does include it, they should pay some professional educators to produce a series of Youtube videos on the proper use of V-Log. It's a wonder more camera companies don't release detailed video tutorials on the complex and often misunderstood features of their products.
 

CyVan

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Free V-Log?

Maybe 8 bit V-Log, but can't imagine it will be 10 bit high bitrate, All-I V-Log unless the camera is priced near the GH5.

V-Log is a minefield for inexperienced users, which may be half the reason Panasonic splits it out into a separate purchase on the GH5. By building it in, many will activate it because it's the highest quality mode, resulting in great disappointment with the unusable imagery. And if it's 8-bit V-Log and not 10-bit, the learning curve will be even steeper.

If Panasonic does include it, they should pay some professional educators to produce a series of Youtube videos on the proper use of V-Log. It's a wonder more camera companies don't release detailed video tutorials on the complex and often misunderstood features of their products.
In an interview when the GH5 was released they actually said this. The charge was to weed out ppl just turning it on w/o knowing what they're doing and to help pay for the additional effort to support calls for it.
 

retiredfromlife

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Free V-Log?
I don't remember the exact price but my G85 bundled with the 14-140 was just over AUD 1600.00
With the inclusion of V Log and a few upgrades I can see this being more expensive on release, but I hope to be proved wrong.

I am hoping it comes with the 20x punch in for focus etc from the GH5. Looking forward to see the final specs in the next few days.
 

Telonson

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In an interview when the GH5 was released they actually said this. The charge was to weed out ppl just turning it on w/o knowing what they're doing and to help pay for the additional effort to support calls for it.
Makes sense.

Suspect the BlackMagic Pocket 4K's 12-bit RAW is easier to work with than V-Log. And with BlackMagic RAW, files sizes can be equal or less than the GH5's 400mbps V-Log All-I.
 

Telonson

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I wonder if BlackMagic would license it to other manufacturers?
They've published the specification for software developers. They've also said they were open to discussions with rival hardware manufacturers.

Of course, Panasonic, Sony, and Canon all have pro-video lines for which they charge many multiples the prices of their pro-sumer cameras. Would Panasonic want a GH camera to better the features of an EVA1, or Canon an EOS to better their C700?

There's a reason only BlackMagic puts relatively free software features like USB recording and full RAW on their $1300 camera, while Panasonic, Sony, and Canon will not. Blackmagic doesn't have a decades-old Pro-Video silo fighting to keep pro features out of the more reasonably priced gear being developed by the firm's consumer silo.
 

CyVan

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They've published the specification for software developers. They've also said they were open to discussions with rival hardware manufacturers.

Of course, Panasonic, Sony, and Canon all have pro-video lines for which they charge many multiples the prices of their pro-sumer cameras. Would Panasonic want a GH camera to better the features of an EVA1, or Canon an EOS to better their C700?

There's a reason only BlackMagic puts relatively free software features like USB recording and full RAW on their $1300 camera, while Panasonic, Sony, and Canon will not. Blackmagic doesn't have a decades-old Pro-Video silo fighting to keep pro features out of the more reasonably priced gear being developed by the firm's consumer silo.
That's true, but it might behoove them to start pushing that codec into the higher end models as well. With the GH5 I think may have realised that it can be profitable to make cheaper cameras more capable and sell a lot more of them. It's a bit of a race to the bottom but since BM is already doing it its better for them to cannibalize their own product than someone else. There's also an advantage to having lightweight file sizes in the higher end cameras as well.

Only time will tell...
 

gcogger

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So I did a simple calculation:
G90 is 11% larger by volume than the g80 (incorrectly assuming that cameras are cuboids).
G90 is 6% heavier by weight than the g80.

I'd rather it stayed the same size and weight of the previous generation... Similar thing happened with the gx9 vs gx80, and I don't see a good reason for this trend to make every gen bigger...
I'd prefer it to be lighter than the previous generation. The G7 was as large/heavy as I wanted to go, and I was disappointed in the weight of the G80/85.
 

Telonson

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I'd prefer it to be lighter than the previous generation. The G7 was as large/heavy as I wanted to go, and I was disappointed in the weight of the G80/85.
Handled the G7 and a number of other models at the camera shop a few days ago. To me, the G7 feels too light for its size. Clearly made almost entirely of plastic.

The extra 90 or so grams on the G85 is (IMHO) more than worth it for the tough magnesium frame, weather sealing, IBIS, and all the rest.

Though have to say, when trying out the many models the shop had on offer (including all the latest mirror-less full frames) nothing looked and felt as good as the Fuji X-T3. If my priority were stills instead of video, and it came with image stabilization, it would be hard to ignore.
 
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