Panasonic Kills GM & GF Lines

davidzvi

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I actually think there's great value in a camera with a selfie screen like the GF7 for v-logging and family video use. Olympus hinged it the wrong way around on the E-PL7 though, makes it useless on a tripod...
More proof and have to agree with @Andym72. The down flip is better for the target. Lowering you eyes a little to look at the screen below the camera is less noticeable than lifting them to look above it.
 

Andym72

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You may be right, but I still don't see many "fashion blogger type" women, regardless of age, pull out an E-PL7 in the street
I don't see "fashion blogger type" women, period :laugh1:

apart from their smartphones, they often do carry Sonys (mostly A5000 series or NX3s and 5s), Samsungs and the odd Panasonic GF camera, and some of them actually have a PL - 2 or 3, in bright colours (red or white). But the E-PL7 is a more sophisticated camera than those in my view, and I'm pretty sure it shows in use - it's not your watered-down happy snapper cam by a long shot, and is actually bigger than most of the "cutie" offerings.
Actually the E-PL7 isn't all that much bigger than an E-PL3. I've got an E-PL3 (in white - don't worry, no offence taken, you weren't to know!) and its latest successor has gained a handful of millimetres in every direction but there's very little in it. Ergonomically, the E-PL7 is the PL3 form factor, perfected, they sorted out the daft aspect ratio mismatch of the screen, put a grip on it, and moved the wheel to the top around the shutter button (which made a huge difference to usability). Features wise, the biggy is way better IBIS that works in video, and the expected sensor noise level improvements you get with a generation or two of development. But for stills, they really are about as capable as each other, the PL3 is just more fiddly to get at all those settings, but they are there. My girlfriend, who is a pretty serious landscape shooter with her Canon DSLR, has been gobsmacked at the shots I've got with my "dinky" white camera.

And the E-PL7 is plenty cute in white itself.

So the way I see it, either Olympus went too far in *also* making it an enthusiast's camera (which in my view the E-PL7 still is) and made a big mistake in killing off the PM line instead of morphing it into their "cutie" offering (they could simply have added the selfie screen screen or even just a mirror - it wouldn't have needed a lot more), and now they have to water down the feature set/day-to-day usability of their entry-level PEN to stay in a market they're obviously no experts in catering for.
I don't see that cute/stylish and sophisticated/capable have to be mutually exclusive. The E-PL7 in white is both, no doubt about it. The E-PL8 will be an even more advanced camera, yes the grip will be smaller, but that's (slightly) watering down the usability, not the features, we both think it will have the guts of the E-M10 MkII. It's a concession of style over function, sure, but I don't see it stopping the E-PL8 being an enthusiasts camera too. I'm looking forward to it, it looks like it would be about the same size if not a wee bit smaller than my E-PL3 which I still use if I want to travel extra light, but way better ergonomically and features wise, a great second camera to go with the E-M1 I bought last year.
 
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@Andym72 Again, I find very little to contradict you - the E-PL7 sure is a handsome camera, and if the E-PL8 does deliver technically, the only "issue" may be using it with bigger lenses (the E-PL7 does exceptionally well in that respect for such a small camera). For the "white=cute" shortcut, I apologise - certainly no offense meant, so I'm glad none was taken. Besides, I still have a red GF1 I find very useful for street shooting as well ... :)

FWIW, I sometimes find the selfie/posing crowd that makes up a sizeable chunk of our tourist population (which seriously outnumbers the locals at this time of year) pretty hard to bear - mostly because not making fun of them is so difficult, but I certainly don't want to appear disrespectful. However, someday, I might organise a photobombing flashmob ...

M.
 

RAH

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I just noticed this interesting thread today. I am also sad to see the GM line go, especially the GM5. As others have said, it makes an excellent second body. It seems that small cameras used as 2nd bodies just don't make it. The same thing happened with the Canon SL1 - nice small DSLR, which, when paired with one of their small "kit"-type lenses, gave a nice small package.

It seems that no one wants these very small cameras as primary bodies (I don't myself), and there isn't enough of a market for "enthusiasts" who like the cameras to avoid lens swaps in the field. Too bad, though, IMHO.
 
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Price and size for me. I was getting ready to go on a vacation and the smallest thing I had to take with me was a D700 and old 28-105. I picked up an E-PM1 and kit lens for about $300, they are smaller and lighter than the 28-105.
Ditto with the D700... beautiful camera but its a travel brick!... I'm on the verge of diving into m4/3 as soon as the Oly OMD-1 mii is available... I'll keep my D700 for my macro and low light work but for travel its all about size... and in this case the smaller the better without sacrificing huge quality...
As for even smaller... isn't that what the iPhone is for?
 

cnyap

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I have the GF7. W/o a light body (I considered the GM1/GM5, GF7 and Oly PM2), I wouldn't have ever considered m43. Oly M1 is large enough that you might as well get a APS-C SLR.
 

JoFT

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Coming late to this this discussion and having both GM1 and GM5 I am pretty sad it a camera of this form factor would disappear. The GM´s are really great camera. It travels with me all the time and delivers awesome photos especially in combination with great prime lenses.

The GX8 is an abuse of the µ43 idea. Fullstop. A camera of the size of medium format. It is by fare too large.

But on the other side: I did not understood the GF´s at all....

If Panasonic would ask me for the product line up I would give the following recommendation:

  • An entry level camera: cheap and basic functionality.
  • An "Amateur" camera like the G7/G70
  • An "Enthusiast" Camera: tiny with high performance
  • A "professional" line up covered by GH line
I will check right tomorrow wether the GX85 whatever will fit into my bag.....
 

RichDesmond

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I have the GF7. W/o a light body (I considered the GM1/GM5, GF7 and Oly PM2), I wouldn't have ever considered m43. Oly M1 is large enough that you might as well get a APS-C SLR.
The body of an M1 may be almost as big as a small DSLR, but overall the lenses are much smaller. Taken as a whole, an m4/3 kit is going to be a lot more compact than an equivalent DLSR one.
 

lenshoarder

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The body of an M1 may be almost as big as a small DSLR, but overall the lenses are much smaller. Taken as a whole, an m4/3 kit is going to be a lot more compact than an equivalent DLSR one.
Depends on the lenses. M43 lenses aren't that much smaller than many M43 owners seem to think. I have a variety of lenses from FF to APS to M43, they really aren't that different in length. The M43 lenses tend to be thinner, but it's relatively minor. As long as a lens isn't wider than the body, it doesn't really matter.
 

RichDesmond

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Depends on the lenses. M43 lenses aren't that much smaller than many M43 owners seem to think. I have a variety of lenses from FF to APS to M43, they really aren't that different in length. The M43 lenses tend to be thinner, but it's relatively minor. As long as a lens isn't wider than the body, it doesn't really matter.
Guess we'll just have to disagree on this. :) I've got a Canon APS-C system, and in the lenses that matter to me the difference is large. Compare the Canon 10-22 to the Oly 9-18 for example, or the kit 18-55 vs 14-42. For what I carry the overall weight and bulk of a body and 3-5 lenses in m4/3 is about half of what my equivalent Canon gear comes in at.
 

cnyap

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I have and love the 10-22 (which is fairly light for what it is). I will more likely get the (heavier) Panny 7-14 than the Oly 9-18. Not sure of the weight of these 3 lenses except that the Oly is the lightest (and least wide "equivalent"). In my bag, I stand my lenses on end, so a wide lens like the 10-22 takes up a lot of room. Length doesn't matter as much as width for me.


Guess we'll just have to disagree on this. :) I've got a Canon APS-C system, and in the lenses that matter to me the difference is large. Compare the Canon 10-22 to the Oly 9-18 for example, or the kit 18-55 vs 14-42. For what I carry the overall weight and bulk of a body and 3-5 lenses in m4/3 is about half of what my equivalent Canon gear comes in at.
 

lenshoarder

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Guess we'll just have to disagree on this. :) I've got a Canon APS-C system, and in the lenses that matter to me the difference is large. Compare the Canon 10-22 to the Oly 9-18 for example, or the kit 18-55 vs 14-42. For what I carry the overall weight and bulk of a body and 3-5 lenses in m4/3 is about half of what my equivalent Canon gear comes in at.
I guess we do. Since I've compared my 14-42mm to my 18-55mm, say for a NEX and if anything the 14-42mm is longer. Just a tad, but still longer. Also, I have a bunch of Alpha lenses that are quite small. Say for a 18-200mm. I have one that's about the same size as a 18-55mm. If you compare roughly the equivalent focal lengths, say the Panasonic 20mm to the Canon 40mm. The lenses are about the same size.

I thought I had posted a comparison of lens sizes between M43, NEX and FF somewhere. I just can't remember where and googling hasn't been productive. So these will have to do to illustrate my point. In a nutshell, NEX(APS-C) sized lenses are pretty much the same size as M43 sized lenses. Yes, you can find examples of large APS-C lenses. You can also find examples of large M43 lenses. But overall, there isn't much difference.

Mirrorless Camera Size Comparison: NEX5, NX10, E-P2, E-PL1, GF1, G2
Lens size comparison!
 
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cnyap

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Need to show the GM1 or GM5 with the 12-32 lens. :)
I was looking (for eons) for a lightweight camera + wide lens for use on my RC airplane and "drone" (replacing a Fuji F20 that I've used for aerials since 2007).
The Panny 14mm F2.5 lens drew me into m43 since it only weighs 2 ounces (and 12-32 is not much more, which is what I'll likely use since it's wider and I own it). The lightest Sony lens that I can recall was 4 ounces? And likely wasn't very good. Bodies (5100) weigh more too. Since I'll be shooting in good light 99% of the time, m43 should be ideal.
 

speedy

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The GX8 is an abuse of the µ43 idea. Fullstop. A camera of the size of medium format. It is by fare too large.
No. No it's not. I thought the same, until I actually bought one. It's brilliant, size & ergonomically wise. Goldilocks camera. Just enough room for liberal smattering of manual controls, yet not too heavy. Bit bigger than my EOS M, much nicer to hold. If you want tiny to suit dwarf hands, there's camera's to suit. Leave us with normal sized hands & fingers with something comfortable to use for extended periods.
 

ijm5012

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I have the GF7. W/o a light body (I considered the GM1/GM5, GF7 and Oly PM2), I wouldn't have ever considered m43. Oly M1 is large enough that you might as well get a APS-C SLR.
You seem to only be considering one half of the camera/lens combo. A camera can't do much good without a lens in front of it, and that's where m43 still excels over APS-C. Here's an example for you of an E-M1 vs. an 80D, with normal kit-zooms on them. You sure you still "might as well get an APS-C DSLR"?

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Turbofrog

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I guess we do. Since I've compared my 14-42mm to my 18-55mm, say for a NEX and if anything the 14-42mm is longer. Just a tad, but still longer. Also, I have a bunch of Alpha lenses that are quite small. Say for a 18-200mm. I have one that's about the same size as a 18-55mm. If you compare roughly the equivalent focal lengths, say the Panasonic 20mm to the Canon 40mm. The lenses are about the same size.

I thought I had posted a comparison of lens sizes between M43, NEX and FF somewhere. I just can't remember where and googling hasn't been productive. So these will have to do to illustrate my point. In a nutshell, NEX(APS-C) sized lenses are pretty much the same size as M43 sized lenses. Yes, you can find examples of large APS-C lenses. You can also find examples of large M43 lenses. But overall, there isn't much difference.

Mirrorless Camera Size Comparison: NEX5, NX10, E-P2, E-PL1, GF1, G2
Lens size comparison!
It's probably not that surprising. Given the corner quality of most of the Sony APS-C lenses, I suspect that they cover a very similar image circle as M4/3 lenses. That is, they cover exactly what they need, while M4/3 covers larger than they need in order to improve corner performance.
 

ijm5012

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The GX8 is an abuse of the µ43 idea. Fullstop. A camera of the size of medium format. It is by fare too large.
You sure about that? Not only is the GX8 smaller, but it's also nearly a quarter kilogram lighter as well (body only). Camerasize doesn't have any lenses available for the Hassy yet, but it's safe to say that once you throw a lens on the front of both cameras, the discrepancy only grows.

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Turbofrog

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You sure about that? Not only is the GX8 smaller, but it's also nearly a quarter kilogram lighter as well (body only). Camerasize doesn't have any lenses available for the Hassy yet, but it's safe to say that once you throw a lens on the front of both cameras, the discrepancy only grows.
And let's be realistic, the Hasselblad makes literally every other camera look ridiculous in the sensor size vs. body size comparison. "What you mean your A7r II is that big and it's only got a sensor that's 40% smaller than mine?!"

Until, as you say, lenses come into the picture. Hasselblad's two current lenses are competitive with M4/3 in terms of aperture equivalence...
 

JoFT

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You sure about that? Not only is the GX8 smaller, but it's also nearly a quarter kilogram lighter as well (body only). Camerasize doesn't have any lenses available for the Hassy yet, but it's safe to say that once you throw a lens on the front of both cameras, the discrepancy only grows.

View attachment 131290
Exactly that what I mean: This is the abuse! (I had the Hassy in my hands last friday... It´s an amazing camera. Let´s see how the images will look like...)
 

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