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Original EM5 with problematic 5Axis.

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by Costas_Gr, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. Costas_Gr

    Costas_Gr Mu-43 Regular

    30
    Oct 3, 2016
    I bought a used EM5 1 to keep it up until be available EM1 mk2 and then to use it as a second body.
    Camera was in excellent condition with 4175 clicks only.
    But after a lot of tests I notice that 5Axis is nonexistent compared to 3Axis of Epl7 also I have.
    By Epl7 and Oly 12-40 f2.8 can shoot with shutter 1/6 at 40mm with 100% success.
    By EM is difficulty even with 1/20. Generally get slightly blurred photos many often with 1/30 even 1/50 and I have the impression that 5Axis not working.
    I don't think can be so bad compared with 3 Axis of Epl7. And the problem doesn't appear only in low shutter speed.
    Today shot a cat that was still 5-6 shots. Except on face was a slight blure, unjustified for shutter speed 1/500, photos wasn't so sharp as Epl7s using Oly 12-40mm also.
    By Epl7 no needed second shot. One and it is perfect.

    So I conclude that there is a problem in the stabilizer. It can't be so bad 5Axis of oritzinal EM5.
    If someone has an EM5 1 and any other newer Olympus with 3Axis or 5Axis please do a test and tell me the results. What is the minimum shooter speed you can shoot with Original EM5?
    I can't keep this camera. I will come back it but I want to be sure for the problem.
     
  2. Replytoken

    Replytoken Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 7, 2012
    Puget Sound
    Ken
    I'm sorry to hear of your problems with this E-M5. Unfortunately, your question is not easily answered as the IBIS system is not easily measurable in terms of how slow a shutter speed can be successfully selected. It does sound like you have a problem based on experience with my E-M5's. Have you tried a full reset on the body and updated the firmware on both the lens and body? If so, and you are still having issues, then it sounds like the camera will need to be serviced.

    Good luck,

    --Ken
     
  3. piggsy

    piggsy Mu-43 All-Pro

    Could be you're noticing shuttershock? The E-M5 & PM2 don't have the EFCS/0sec antishock delay option available, that only came in with the P5/M10/PL7/M1.
     
  4. zigg

    zigg New to Mu-43

    6
    Nov 26, 2014
    Which firmware are you running?

    Also try 1/8 antishock.
     
  5. Costas_Gr

    Costas_Gr Mu-43 Regular

    30
    Oct 3, 2016
    Thanks for the replies.
    I have try everything, foul reset, carefully setup all the settings are about stabilization and more than 1000 images for testing.
    At any kind of photo, Epl7 is much better even they are in day light landscape or portrait.
    Ok at landscapes you can see the difference at 50% crop and up but when there people on the frame At indoors there is chaos between them. With Epl7 can have clean pictures with 12-40 pro at 40mm with shooter speed 1/8. With EM5 even if iit is 1/25 or 1/40 images aren't 100%. I must go at 1/80 to be sure. Really I can use it indoors.
    I have try with 4 different lenses.
    Sure there is problem at the 5Axis and at the shutter which sounds odd and slower. I haven't heard befor a similar sound from a camera shutter, as this EM5.


    Some screenshots from the original ORF. You can see easy the difference.
    First picture is with Olympus 12-40 f2.8 pro lens at 40mm. Left picture from EM5 and right Epl7.
    Although EM5s photo is with aperture f4 and normal must be sharper than the picture of Epl7 which is f2.8, the results are opposite. Epl7s photo is much more sharp.
    All photos are 100% crop. The real colors are these on Epl7s photos.
    Tomorrow I should upload indoors photos.
    40MM.


    Next picture is with 40-150mm lens at 150mm. Left Em7, right Epl7. Also here much sharper Epl7s photo.
    IMG_1462.JPG

    One more from EM5 at 150mm to see that all they are little blurred.

    EM5_40-150MM1_ORF.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  6. Replytoken

    Replytoken Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    May 7, 2012
    Puget Sound
    Ken
    Assuming you have updated the firmware for the lens and the body, then it seems that this E-M5 may have some issues.

    --Ken
     
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  7. Growltiger

    Growltiger Mu-43 Top Veteran

    643
    Mar 26, 2014
    UK
    Perhaps this is why it was sold.
     
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  8. CWRailman

    CWRailman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    562
    Jun 2, 2015
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Denny
    As I noted in another of your threads your shutter speeds are way too slow. Even the image you consider sharp is not sharp. You would be much better off going with a higher ISO and a higher shutter speed. 1 times the lens focal length or in the case of 4/3 format 2 times is the minimum but 1.5 times or in the case of 4/3 format 3 times the focal length is the preferred shutter speed to get sharp images.
     
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  9. Costas_Gr

    Costas_Gr Mu-43 Regular

    30
    Oct 3, 2016
    Dear friend you are right. This is the rule, but we have a stabilisation system which when working properly subverts the rule.
    So, you can shoot easy with low shutter speed. When I do that with my second camera with excellent results, why not with EM5 which at the papers has a better IBIS?
     
  10. CWRailman

    CWRailman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    562
    Jun 2, 2015
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Denny
    You can rely on that image stabilization but your images will never be as sharp as someone who uses the proper 1.5 times rule. Too many professionals have stated that. If you want professional results then do as the professionals such as Damien Lovegrove, Mike Browne, Gavin Hoey, or Mark Wallace just to name a few do.
     
  11. Costas_Gr

    Costas_Gr Mu-43 Regular

    30
    Oct 3, 2016
    There are many situations where we can't use the rule. As known mft receive and getting less light than other formats. So, we have very easy hight iso and if we remove it in processing, gets together a large proportion of detail.
    That is the reason why Olympus evolves OIS on small sensors. At the shots without moving IBIS and the electronic shutter give the solution.
    Previously with films we printed in a small dimension and noise wasn't so visible. At worst, we are working black & white.
    Now on the screens, with a double click we have 100% crop and noise makes party if iso exceed the limits.

    All Olympus after 2013 can shoot comfortably at 1/10. EM5 ii, EM10 ii and EM1 are doing very well with low shutter speed as you can see at the photo below. You can shoot until 1/4 and maybe less.
    We can't carry a tripod every moment or an excursion huge flash.

    IMG_1467.JPG
    https://mirrorlessons.smugmug.com/O...s-omd-em10-mark-ii-review-sample-images-8.jpg
     
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  12. Ross the fiddler

    Ross the fiddler Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Please don't go there. That is only what FF fanboys will tell you with that equivalency nonsense.

    It may well be that the IS system might have a falt, but as already said, it might also be shutter shock. I've experienced that on my E-M5 & so have set the AntiShock setting to 1/8 sec to help. It isn't as effective as an electronic (20ms delayed) first curtain though, but better than nothing.
     
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  13. Nathanael

    Nathanael Mu-43 Veteran

    380
    Oct 12, 2015
    "Professionals don't need IBIS so stop whining" doesn't seem like the most helpful remark, but anyways...

    Looks like your EM5 has issues, as mentioned perhaps that's why someone was selling it. Probably not much to be done unfortunately. An interesting experiment would be to compare images shot of a static object with IBIS off (maybe on a tripod) to confirm that it's not shutter shock or a focus problem, etc.
     
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  14. Costas_Gr

    Costas_Gr Mu-43 Regular

    30
    Oct 3, 2016
    We must be honest. M43 is a stop behind the good aps-c as Nikon D500 and two behind FF D810. But to have the same DOF with an M43 must go up 1 & 2 stop respectively. For example if I shoot in low light with 25mm f2.8 a Nikon D810 needs f5.6 for same DOF and iso will going very high. But Nikon FF should have less noise even iso is 3200 with 1200 on MFT.
    Of course if we have no moving frame, M43 will do better because 5axis and electronic shutter, let it to use lower shutter speed.

    Anti shock in Original EM5 hasn't system of first curtain. So it helps more at shutter speeds between 1/60 - 1/200.

    It's Clearly shutter is the reason. Hands can't stop the movement of the camera because of shutter shock at so slower speeds unless you hold the camera very carefully.
    For that for example at 1/15 with 25mm at 5 shoots we have 1 or 2 blurred. I don't mean extreme blurred but not enough detailed.
    By lack I understand if have the flash on hot shoe, I have better results because flash keep camera to my forehead and gives better stability.
    If camera is on a tripod hasn't problem because tripod stop the shutter vibration much better than our hand.

    Finally I don't think 5-Axis is responsible for that. I believe camera hasn't problem, but just these are the possibilities of original EM5. If I wasn't owner of Epl7 for direct comparison, I should not understand the problem.
    Yesterday evening I shot with Epl7 a man at a dark road with 1/10 and because I didn't want he understand, I didn't use the EVF4, but I shot by tap to the screen with camera at the height of my waist. The worst point for stability. Photo was perfectly usable.
    With EM5 I can't do that.

    Of course if someone use it with classic methods will be happy.
    Me no. I will don't keep it. Already ordered a new EM10 mark ii with EGC 3 grip offered at 550 €.
    I will wait drop a bit the price of EM1 mark 2 before I purchase it and I will use EM10 mk2. Then will be my second body for the next three years.

    @@@ For those they think no important IBIS and is better high iso than low shutter speed as 1/10, 1/4 or less for handheld photos, they have to see these samples:
    Robin Wong: Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark II Review
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
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  15. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    The IBIS in the E-M5 should not be in any significant way worse than the E-PL7. If you're finding a big difference in the shutter speeds at which you can get a sharp shot between the two cameras, then I'd say your E-M5 has a problem.
     
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  16. Costas_Gr

    Costas_Gr Mu-43 Regular

    30
    Oct 3, 2016
    As I said before, thereally isnt difference from 1/15 and up. With Epl7 I can shoot much easier (using evf4) from 1/4 until 1/15 with 10/10.
    If I shoot a frame without people i can't see difference between or maybe must do 100% crop to understand the difference.
    From so many photos I shout for test I can feel when a photo will be blured.
    Shutter pushave the camera left and down. So if I keep it carefully, I can control this moving from shutter and picture isnt blured.
    For that I say that the difference between 2 cameras is at the shutter. Don't forget epl7 has real Anti-Shock 0 like OMD's mark ii.
    Missing only silence mode.
    When I press half the button, first curtain falls and shutter moving is so soft. EM5 hasn't that, so it gives a hard moving which at speeds like 1/15, 1/10, 1/8 needs big attention and you can't have 10/10 no blured photos like epl7, EM10 mk1 and later models.
    It is an extreme situation that doesn't interest all users, as well most of them dont shoot under 1/15. So never they will understand the difference.
    I wait some one with EM5 for comparison.
     
  17. pdk42

    pdk42 One of the "Eh?" team

    Jan 11, 2013
    Leamington Spa, UK
    At slow shutter speeds like 1/10 or 1/20 of a second shutter shock cannot cause problems. As I mentioned before, the vibrations caused by the curtain opening are short lived - less than 10mS. At 1/10 sec the total exposure is 100mS so this vibration is such a small proportion of the total exposure time that it cannot cause blurring.

    At 1/100 sec though, the total exposure time is now only 10mS so the vibration will occur over the whole exposure and WILL cause blurring. The 0s anti shock setting adds about 20mS delay after the first curtain opens but before the exposure starts which fixes this problem since the vibration caused by the shutter will now occur before exposure starts. It will not make any difference to exposures at 100mS (1/10s).

    The original anti shock of 1/8 or longer adds the delay before the first curtain which can be effective for camera shake (photographer induced camera movement by pressing the shutter button).

    Finally, I'll just add that perhaps you are expecting too much from the IBIS. I still consider shots where the shutter speed is less than 1/FL as being at risk of camera shake. Getting sharp shots down at 1/10 or 1/15s consistently is a big expectation.
     
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  18. WasOM3user

    WasOM3user Mu-43 Veteran

    458
    Oct 20, 2012
    Lancashire, UK
    Paul
    Try the following quick test (if you can) fit a lens with more than 100mm focal length and try and hold the image on an smallish object (leaf in a tree, top of a road sign etc.) with a half press of the shutter you should be able to see the stabilisation kick in. I have an original EM-5 and it is very very noticeable when the 5 axis kicks in. If you cannot see the difference I think you have an issue as it should be easy to spot.

    With focal lengths of below 45mm I can regularly go to 1/2 sec without issue (yes I have a good technique to start with thanks to my film days).
     
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  19. Costas_Gr

    Costas_Gr Mu-43 Regular

    30
    Oct 3, 2016
    Thanks a lot for informations. My mistake is I didn't upload photos to see better what I mean.
    I will try to do that at night.
    General if I shoot for exable an object in my living room, I can take nice pictures without they look blurred.
    The problem start when I shoot a doll which I use for model . I am shooting the doll from a distance about 2.8 m. At 1/15 if I see blur at the eyes I will be the reason because normally I have 5/5 very clear photos at this speed
    At the 1/13 I have maybe 4/5 clean eyes. From 1/10 start to be difficult and I have just 1 or 2 clean eyes.
    Maybe I ask more from EM5's IBIS, but with Epl7 I have better results.

    EDIT
    I forgot to write, the problem is bigger using my 12-40 f2.8 pro.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  20. CWRailman

    CWRailman Mu-43 Top Veteran

    562
    Jun 2, 2015
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Denny
    I've been trying to explain that to him but he thinks he knows more than the professionals with hundreds years of accumulated experience.
     
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