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On condition and expectations...

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by lattiboy, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    DISCLAIMER: Although this was set off by a particular ad, this is really years of frustration as a pretty active buyer/seller here, on FM, and ebay. Not calling out anybody in particular, just getting some stuff off of my chest....

    Part of this is based off of this listing. I made an initial mistake saying "like new". Not because, to any reasonable human being, it isn't like new, but because to a certain segment of people (who will be addressed below), it isn't "retail new".

    If you've ever worked in retail, "open box", "display", "customer return", and "refurbished" items are often sold "like new". This means that there are no obvious defects, scratches, or missing parts. These are sold at a discount, because it isn't new. This doesn't mean that the product was opened by an ethereal spirit and then never touched human hands.

    If you are looking to get something in "new" condition, may I please advise you to go pay the new price from a retailer? Oh? You don't want to pay the new price? Well then, why don't you try being the slightest bit realistic. You are cheap, that is fine; I am too! But guess what? Cheap and "picky" are mutually exclusive traits in a shopper. When these two cross each other, you turn into a raging $@#! who should jump in front of a truck.

    All that being said: Could we please, as a community, try and remember that you are buying used equipment off a photo board from private sellers, and that inspecting every nook and cranny of an item like you are a Christie's auctioneer is d-bag behavior.


    PS if you're paying with PayPal (not gift) and dealing with an established seller, could you please have the decency to give them event he slightest benefit of the doubt? There is realistically no risk to you if you follow the most basic principles of online transactions.
     
  2. krugorg

    krugorg Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jul 18, 2011
    Minnesota USA
    I don't know the whole story, but I don't think your retail "open box" analogy holds up. Typically, an open box camera would be offered at more like a 20% discount (not $24 off retail on a $999 item that has passed through two owners?).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    Sounds like somethings gone awry for you???

    Sorry to hear it. I actually read your ad, and was completely turned off by your posting. I keep teetering on the edge of an EM5, so I check ever EM5 posting here, but the anger in your post turned me away pretty quickly. Just for the record (given what I say below) I never once PMed lattiboy on his camera, so I'm not the one who triggered this post.

    I appreciate the point of view (of understanding what "used" means), but if someone is going to drop $1,000 (!!!!) on something, they have a right to ask questions. I think full disclosure is always the best approach, and open and honest communication both ways.

    Always, of course, it's best if both buyer and seller have established reputations, to work at that dollar level. I'll sell/buy from just about anyone at <$100, but at $1,000 I feel I would have the right to ask, and see pictures, but I am also assuming to some level, that the seller will fully disclose (which you did, btw). But mistakes do happen. For instance, I sold a lens recently that I thought was clean, and positioned as clean. The buyer found something that I had overlooked, so I made an adjustment in the price. It happens.

    I hope you find the buyer you are looking for, and sorry that someone got you so riled.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    As I said, the ad itself was a catalyst for a larger point. If people don't want to pay my price, it won't sell. Pretty simple.
     
  5. meyerweb

    meyerweb Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Sep 5, 2011
    While I certainly understand your frustration, I have to wonder about the juxtaposition of this statement, from the post above:

    And this one, from the linked advert:

    The two highlighted statements above seem to be at odds with each other.
     
  6. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    Not that I disagree at all with the point of the two statements, but I really do believe the seller is free to set any price they wish, and the buyer is free to dismiss or accept it. Low ball offers might be offensive to some, but then you just ignore them. High prices might be offensive to others, but just ignore those, too.

    For buyers, btw, many times higher prices lead to a LOWER actual sold price, as the item sits longer and the seller gets a little bit more desperate. I think in this case, though, the price is fair, given the scarcity of the item. Blame Oly or the Tsunami or what have you, but there is value to some in getting the product now, rather than 2 months from now.
     
  7. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    Alright, well, I see the larger point is being entirely ignored.

    But fine, if anybody here can show me where they would purchase the item at the retail price of $1000, I would be thrilled! Thrilled I tell you!

    Ugh.
     
  8. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    I thought your point was that if you buy something used, you are a d-bag if you inspect it carefully, and don't accept flaws. Or perhaps that "like new" means it could have flaws, and people should accept that?

    Was there some other larger point???
     
  9. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    The larger point (which I quite literally bolded) was that people need to adjust their expectations. If you are bargain hunting, that's great. The problem is the vicious cycle created by buyers like this. Sellers are pushed to hyperbole about condition because buyers are so demanding.

    I would hope people wouldn't be so vain as to care about wear on the baseplate or whatever, but the reason people care... is because other people care! It's all about re-sale value and the only reason we are in this situation is collectors/perfectionists demand an unrealistic condition of product.

    Cameras are tools, but people are treating them like museum pieces.

    I honestly think if most people realized the amount of wear lenses and bodies need before actually effecting the pictures they produce, the whole used market would be re-aligned.
     
  10. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    What was literally bolded was "buying used equipment off a photo board from private sellers" (is) "d-bag behavior" :biggrin:


    I think your last post is far more descriptive of your point than your first post, though I don't agree with it either way.


    If a shopper is looking to buy a "perfect" used item, it may be because they aren't sure they want it, so they want it in "perfect" condition, in case they want to sell it again. I think it's far more driven by Gas, and the approach to buying/selling gear as a hobby (as opposed to acutally using that gear), than anything else.

    If someone wants brand new prices for used gear, then they should keep the equipment brand new. Very simple. If they don't mind selling it for less, then go ahead and use it. Not sure why someone would think they can beat something up and then sell it for new prices, unless of course there is a major scarcity. Even if you accidentally get a scrape or what have you, you deal with the drop in value. It's like anything -- house, car, etc. -- anything. The more wear and tear, the lower the value.

    GLWS.

     
  11. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    Since work is slow, I will post like a maniac here.

    My use of "d-bag" was, at best, juvenile, but people in the photo community are so utterly thin skinned it is really a little depressing. I understand moderation exists because, well, we've all been to youtube. But I really feel like online conversation is now either almost sub-human levels of vulgarity, racism, and anger, or, it's a kind boring morass of half-hearted fights and endless niceties. (this sentence has horrible punctuation)

    It would be so refreshing to see some anger or honesty or non-smarmy contrarians exist in a decent place. As it is, it's all kind of like my office: gray and dull.

    I realize I'm an outlier, but anybody who spent time online before it became the place it is today probably understand what I'm talking about.
     
  12. GaryAyala

    GaryAyala Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 2, 2011
    SoCal
    I purchased mine for $999.00 at OC Camera.

    G
     
  13. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    Jesus, you're just arguing to argue now.

    There is "major scarcity" of the product. If I was selling an EP-3, my ad would be insane, but I'm not. I would think you could understand that.

    I could sell the camera for $1075 on ebay in about 5 minutes. I choose not to because I generally enjoy dealing with people on forums and I'd net a similar amount (also, I deny ebay/pp an easy $100). However, as of late it isn't much better.

    And "beat something up" is a pretty long damn jump from "shot 100 frames with in your front yard".
     
  14. WT21

    WT21 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 19, 2010
    Boston
    You may be right, which is a perfect wake up call to go do something better with my time. Like clip my toenails.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. krugorg

    krugorg Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jul 18, 2011
    Minnesota USA
    I would agree with WT21's point, that you should be able to charge whatever you want for the camera.

    But... if I was looking for an E-M5 right now and came across your listing (also think it came across fairly aggressive), without any pictures (?), and knowing that I could get an E-M5 new online right now from an authorized reseller (worst case, selling off the kit lens here or on ebay) for roughly the same price....? Yeah, I don't think I would want to become this camera's third owner for $24 off list price.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. krugorg

    krugorg Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Jul 18, 2011
    Minnesota USA
    :rofl:
     
  17. meyerweb

    meyerweb Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Sep 5, 2011
    Well, since I don't need to have one today, I would just order from B&H and wait. $999 shipping included.
     
  18. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    Oh god, just close this thing up.

    This has officially become a thread about my ad and EM-5 stock status, which is pointless.

    This pedantic nitpicking is the internet at its worst.
     
  19. twokatmew

    twokatmew Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 1, 2012
    Lansing, MI, US
    Margaret
    Why the attitude?

    When I saw the ad in question, I was immediately turned off and thought "Why the attitude?" It seems to me that Lattiboy posted with a chip on his shoulder, and that theme continues in this thread AFAIC.

    When I post items for sale or auction, I take close-ups from all angles and highlight any flaws no matter how minor, because I don't want to deal with any hard feelings due to lack of communication.

    Some may not care about a ding or scrape here or there, but many do. I err on the side of caution in my own ads. I also wouldn't want to open up my purchase to find flaws that were not described up front, no matter how minor. "Like new" should be just like a new one IMNSHO.

    Anyway, the tone of the ad in question makes me wonder if Lattiboy has had previous disputes with buyers re how items were described and the reality of their condition upon arrival. To me, the unwarranted rant is a warning sign of a troublesome transaction.

    I'd be much more likely to consider making a purchase if Lattiboy had stuck to the facts and posted detailed photos. I mean, isn't the point to attract potential buyers and not to drive them away?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. lattiboy

    lattiboy Mu-43 Regular

    158
    Dec 16, 2009
    So, to be clear, you sense a warning sign of a "troublesome transaction" with me. A user who has been buying on selling on here for years with nothing but positive feedback, who has been ebaying for a DECADE with the same?

    Your mealy-mouthed, passive/aggressive response is an almost too perfect encapsulation about everything I wasted the last few posts complaining about. Thanks.