OM Digital UK Q&A

[RAH]

What E-M1.3 features does it have that aren't in Firmware 3.x on the E-M1.2? Aside from USB charge, I'm not aware of any.

OK, you're right - apparently the only thing the E-M5.3 has that the E-M1.2 doesn't have is the USB charging ability (as far as features). So the E-M5.3 is a scaled down E-M1.2 with USB charging.

Regardless of all this, if you want a m43 camera that has these features - 1) small body; 2) hi-res mode; 3) USB charging - the only camera is the E-M5.3. I was enticed by the E-M1.2 and thought long and hard about it, but ultimately, gee, I don't want to carry around a camera that is that large on a trip. If I need a better grip on the camera when I get back home, I can add one to the E-M5.

When the E-M10.4 came out, I liked the look of it a lot, but without hi-res, it's a non-starter. If it weren't for hi-res, I might chose an E-M10.4 over the E-M5.3. But even there, the E-M10.4 didn't exist when I bought the E-M5.3 (plus it would not have been certain that Oly wouldn't once again put the 16MP sensor in the E-M10.4).

I think there are a lot of people for whom the E-M5.3 checks all their requirements (especially size). I do think that $1000 is the correct price for it, not $1200. But there are a lot of sales at that lower price.

 

[BDR-529]

Well considering the EM10 series is reported as their best seller in Japan and it also sells [or did so] in Australia as well according to my local shop it would not be wise in my way of looking at things to only cater for the minority of Olympus users who purchase the flag ship models

This may be the case but the real question is "can OMDS, or anyone else for that matter, make any money out of these sub-$1000€ models in a market that moves under 8mio units per year"?

If you ask any camera manufacturer the answer seems to be an unanimous "NO". Everyone is following a new startegy where they concentrate entirely on higher end models.

Unfortunately it looks like only current entry level models will stay in production as long as there's still demand because R&D and manufacturing set-up costs have been long since amortized and they are at least somewhat profitable "as is".

Nobody seems to have plans to invest in truly new budget models because the profit margin is too low and they are the next category that will be wiped out by smartphonese with AI image processing features.

 

[retiredfromlife]

This may be the case but the real question is "can OMDS, or anyone else for that matter, make any money out of these sub-$1000€ models in a market that moves under 8mio units per year"?

If you ask any camera manufacturer the answer seems to be an unanimous "NO". Everyone is following a new startegy where they concentrate entirely on higher end models.

Unfortunately it looks like only current entry level models will stay in production as long as there's still demand because R&D and manufacturing set-up costs have been long since amortized and they are at least somewhat profitable "as is".

Nobody seems to have plans to invest in truly new budget models because the profit margin is too low and they are the next category that will be wiped out by smartphonese with AI image processing features.

While I agree in principle all the manufacturing plants I have worked in needed a base product that makes no profits but keeps the overheads down for the items you make that do make a profit. Without these your overheads are too high per unit. Now my experience has only been in the metals and pharmaceutical industries so that may differ in electonics, but they still have to keep overhead down somehow and if you sell less units overall they just go up.

But this is pure guesswork on my behalf as I know zilch about the camera business.

 

[piggsy]

Ah, "AI" the most vague and overly used buzzword when talking about photography. Our cameras already all use artificial intelligence and have for many years (for example face and eye detection). So unless someone is going to come up with a more specific name that describe a specific thing they are trying to describe, "AI" is mostly meaningless as a term to describe the future of photography as it is no different that saying cameras will get faster and better processors that will do many "things".

AI/ML/neural networks/whatever you want to call it has its own history. It's like hardware transform and lighting & portable shaders becoming a thing in consumer 3d graphics. Yes you could do a thing, narrowly and expensively and usually only as written to very custom hardware. Now you can do a thing that manipulates an image based on a transferrable model between programs and architectures. It is a big deal! It's Ok to call it as its own thing.

 

[John King]

While I agree in principle all the manufacturing plants I have worked in needed a base product that makes no profits but keeps the overheads down for the items you make that do make a profit. Without these your overheads are too high per unit. Now my experience has only been in the metals and pharmaceutical industries so that may differ in electonics, but they still have to keep overhead down somehow and if you sell less units overall they just go up.

Its called 'contribution margin', but the self-proclaimed experts in this thread demonstrate their misunderstanding of corporate accounting and cost accounting with every post they make. Same crowd that infests DPR ...

 

[Ghostbuggy]

If the new sensor has a much faster sensor readout I wonder if OMDS would consider removing the mechanical shutter from the next EM10 or PENF to reduce size/weight while providing more room for better IBIS. This could be something unique to m43.

As stupid as I may sound but: I wouldn't buy such a Pen-F. I know a shutter isn't great: It can break at some point, maybe sooner maybe later, it can cause shutter shock which leads to blurred pictures. However I still like that fully mechanical sound and the slight vibration and feedback the camera gives when hitting the shutter button. However I can see why many people are excited about the possibility to get rid of it and I think it's clearly going in that direction with mirrorless cameras at some point in the future. With maybe Leica sticking with it...

Also, I'm not sure what you mean here: "Either the Mark III was too late and should've been released much earlier or they should've brought it up more to E-M1 Mark III levels in terms of features and internals." Your sentence is confusing because I cannot tell what the first reference to "Mark III" means - the E-M1 or the E-M5.

• The E-M5.2 came out almost one and a half years after the E-M1.1 - it offered a similar feature set, in a still premium built, rugged shell. Featured an improved IBIS which enabled the first generation High-Res mode.
• The E-M1.2 came out roughly one and a half years after E-M5.2 - it offered a clear step up on pretty much everything: Better sensor, better processing unit, better AF, improved 2nd generation high-res mode, again slightly improved IBIS.
• At this point, people started waiting for a slimmed down version of the latest E-M1, the E-M5.3, which we know didn't happen. In interviews Olympus people have been asked about a new E-M5 over and over again, however they always avoided a clear answer.
• The E-M5.3 however got released more than three years(!) after the E-M1.2 - to my knowledge it didn't offer anything new when compared to the E-M1.2 (please correct me if I'm wrong) and people even said in reviews "It's an E-M1.2 in a more compact housing." Considering it's been three years between the latest E-M1 and the newest E-M5, I think this is fairly lackluster. I was also disappointed by just seeing a single C-Mode on the dial, the E-M1.2 offered C1-C3, the Pen-F even offers C1-C4.
• The E-M1.3 got released not even half a year, I think it's been barely five months after the E-M5.3 - it offered a new imaging processor, again a fairly improved IBIS, 3rd generation High-Res which enabled hand-held shooting, improved AF, Live-ND filter and that Starry Sky AF.

At the point we knew about the E-M5.3 and it also seemed it was pretty much the E-M1.2 hardware in a compact shell, we already knew about the upcoming E-M1.3. So I say the E-M5.3, the way it is, should've been released sometime in early or mid 2018. When the E-M1.2 was still "fresh" and the E-M1.3 was still an unknown factor. However by late 2019 and with the E-M1.2 pretty much already replaced by it's own predecessor, I would've liked the E-M5.3 to incorporate more stuff from the upcoming E-M1 body, not the one which was already being replaced. It should've featured the newer processor, HHHR, Live-ND and so on. Even if they would've made it more expansive that way.

Personally I'd like to see both lines co-exist in the future, however both should be treated in a similar way and offer a similar sheet of features, without the E-M5 being essentially left a full E-M1 generation behind. Both should offer:
Durable, rugged, build quality
Full set of features
Weather sealing

They can be differentiated by the bodies themselves and their own pros and cons:

• The E-M1 would of course be larger with a DSLR styled grip. It houses a bigger battery and has support for a full battery grip. The bigger body offers more controls and buttons (AF-joystick and D-Pad) and also incorporates two SD-card slots.
• The E-M5 should stay more compact and lighter. It houses a smaller, less powerful battery. The smaller body, while still offering the same basic control scheme, has fewer buttons and no joystick. Also there's only room for a single SD-card.

While features pretty much stay identical between future E-M1 and E-M5 iterations, the physical differences should be enough to make each line meaningful. I doubt any wildlife photographers would've opted for an E-M5.3 instead of an E-M1.3 even if the former would have the latter's identical set of features, because they'd like a bigger shell for bigger lenses and being able to install a battery grip when needed.

Regarding the plastic: I am just disappointed that a line which always has been a more compact but yet still "professional" camera, has stepped down in terms of build quality. If the premium plastic housing is so great and durable: Why didn't they use it on the E-M1.3 to save a couple of grams? I might be the minority here, but I care about build quality and haptics on a camera, one of the few reasons why I keep using my Pen-Fs and the plastic shell is pretty a major reason why I wouldn't consider the E-M5.3 for myself.

 

[retiredfromlife]

Regarding the plastic: I am just disappointed that a line which always has been a more compact but yet still "professional" camera, has stepped down in terms of build quality. If the premium plastic housing is so great and durable: Why didn't they use it on the E-M1.3 to save a couple of grams? I might be the minority here, but I care about build quality and haptics on a camera, one of the few reasons why I keep using my Pen-Fs and the plastic shell is pretty a major reason why I wouldn't consider the E-M5.3 for myself.

I think a lot of us here think the same way regarding the EM5.3 body.
On a pure asthetics point for me they just don't feel premium, just a cost cutting measure. But then again I feel the same way towards the new EM10 line, and I will be very dissapointed when mine dies.

 

[StefanKruse]

Probably what he meant, was that they don't know how all the buyers suddenly appeared. Of course they know who ordered, but that's really just a name and an order number. What they don't know is why the demand so drastically exceeds their expectations. They don't know the people behind the order numbers and they are probably wondering if they suddenly got a foot into the pro market (not likely imo) , or if amateur bird photographers are much happier spending 7.5k on a lens than they originally thought (much more likely, imo).

I think the biggest reason for the whole upward movement of the photomarket can be seen here. Companies are all trying to go after a lesser number of big spenders as the global economic divide gets larger and larger. While most people can only justify the cost of their phone camera (it is good enough after all), a small percentage of mostly people with plenty of money to spend are chasing ultimate image quality, regardless of whether their skills actually match that image quality.

The people in the middle who want better IQ and creative options but don't need the very best of the best get fewer and fewer. This is the reason that mu43 struggles and that a lens such as this one can attract plenty of buyers is a good sign that maybe premium optics can persuade people to stay despite of the perceived lesser quality sensor.

Could the high-demand of that lens be due to the upcoming summer and winter Olympics? Has there been a hiring spree or contract-spree for photographers in Japan to prepare for both?

I think that demand has increased because for "a lot" of people the pandemic has freed up resources i.e. no travelling, no restaurants etc. that money can then go into buying other stuff like lenses etc. I know not everyone is that fortunate, but a lot of people are and being locked down has also made a lot of people spend more time outside, pursuing hobbies like photography as you cant go to the movies, meet friends/family for dinners etc. So maybe this can somewhat explain the increased demand for a high-end/high cost lens, which many had deemed a massive commercial miss.

 

[RAH]

The E-M5.2 came out almost one and a half years after the E-M1.1 ...
...
However by late 2019 and with the E-M1.2 pretty much already replaced by it's own predecessor, I would've liked the E-M5.3 to incorporate more stuff from the upcoming E-M1 body, not the one which was already being replaced. It should've featured the newer processor, HHHR, Live-ND and so on. Even if they would've made it more expansive that way.

Nice summary of the full sequence. I wasn't paying much attention with those earlier models, being happy at that time with my E-M10.1 and .2. Thanks for the info!

Personally I'd like to see both lines co-exist in the future, however both should be treated in a similar way and offer a similar sheet of features, without the E-M5 being essentially left a full E-M1 generation behind. Both should offer:
Durable, rugged, build quality
Full set of features
Weather sealing
...

I agree except I don't care about the weather sealing. If they can do it without adding much weight or cost, sure!

I know what everyone means who dislikes the plastic - I'd rather that it was made with metal too. But I'm more interested in the weight, as long as it holds up. I think it will. We shall see...

 

[rogazilla]

I think pursuing sports and wild life at the moment makes a lot of sense. This is something not easily replicated by cell phone. While EM1 series X and Mark 2, Mark 3 does not have a real size advantage compare to other mirrorless FF or APSC now but the lens package does. Went to airshow back in 2019 and walking around with my M1.2 with the P100-400 while huge in term of m43, comparing to Canon, Nikon DSLR FF with FF lenses, its tiny. In telephoto for wild life and sport, the issue of shallow depth of field also diminishes. The only issue comes down to high iso and high shutter speed to freeze actions. I think this is where the new PRO zoom is having such high demand and I think combined with em1x have a real advantage. Therefore it makes sense to update em1x to address the issue to match AF with sony? cleaner high ISO image?

EM5 is stuck in a weird place in my opinion knowing the above. it is the same price as em1.2 at the moment. Knowing em10 is selling like hot cake in Japan, it probably make sense to merge the product. It is a shame because I love em5 series for its size, capability and weather sealing. Maybe they would seal em10?! Weather seal in my opinion is a selling point over people's cell phone.

 

[RAH]

EM5 is stuck in a weird place in my opinion knowing the above. it is the same price as em1.2 at the moment. Knowing em10 is selling like hot cake in Japan, it probably make sense to merge the product. It is a shame because I love em5 series for its size, capability and weather sealing. Maybe they would seal em10?! Weather seal in my opinion is a selling point over people's cell phone.

I don't think it would make sense to merge the E-M5 and E-M10 because the result would be about $1000 (which the price of the current E-M5.3 SHOULD be, IMHO). They already tried to differentiate the two models when they dumbed-down the E-M10.3. They succeeded and made a lot of former E-M10 users very angry (me included). So many E-M10 users hugged their E-M10.2 models and waited for the new E-M5.3 and bought it when it came out (me included).

But they DO need a less expensive entry OMD camera, IMHO, and the E-M10.4 is nicely positioned that way. But they also need a higher-level SMALL camera too, hence the E-M5. OK, so it would be good if it had ALL the features of the E-M1.3. So I think that's what they should do - make the next E-M5 have all the features of the next E-M1 that can fit in a smaller body. I am now agreeing with some folks who mentioned this above, although I originally disagreed. Trouble there is - don't hold your breath waiting...

 

[hoodlum]

I guess too much was said, the video has now been pulled.

 

[Hypilein]

I guess too much was said, the video has now been pulled.

Bit late...

 

[Josh Wolfe]

They will probably slim down to three lines - the em5, the em1 and the em1x. I know everyone doesn’t agree, but all the camera manufacturers are moving up-market. Everyone is going to kill their entry level bodies.

My hope is that they come out with an em1x mark ii that’s got killer af, on the level of the Canon R5 / Sony A9 ii.

 

[fortwodriver]

Bit late...

I don't think that many people watched. In fact, it was probably pulled more because it wasn't really a helpful interview, anyway.

 

[hoodlum]

I don't think that many people watched. In fact, it was probably pulled more because it wasn't really a helpful interview, anyway.

It had 1700 views earlier this morning. Here is the official statement from OMDS.


https://www.e-group.uk.net/forum/fo...-mark-thackara-joins-us-again-next-week/page2

The official statement is: "We have removed this video at the request of Olympus. Although this was a very generalised discussion, some parts were subject to misinterpretation."

 

[fortwodriver]

It had 1700 views earlier this morning. Here is the official statement from OMDS.


https://www.e-group.uk.net/forum/fo...-mark-thackara-joins-us-again-next-week/page2

The official statement is: "We have removed this video at the request of Olympus. Although this was a very generalised discussion, some parts were subject to misinterpretation."

That's OMDS UK? and Olympus were the ones that asked that it be removed?

It actually surprised me that he gave the Q&A more than that they decided it should be removed. Looks like there's a lot of butt-hurt about the video being shared outside their little community, too.

 

[hoodlum]

That's OMDS UK? and Olympus were the ones that asked that it be removed?

It actually surprised me that he gave the Q&A more than that they decided it should be removed. Looks like there's a lot of butt-hurt about the video being shared outside their little community, too.

Here is one further statement

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.dig...era-but-the-future-of-the-e-m5-is-a-hot-topic


UPDATE: OM Digital Solutions reached out to us regarding this story, clarifying on the context within which the discussion was conducted:

"This was a relaxed conversation where we often chew the fat over what people like and don’t like or where things should go in the future. That can lead to interpretations beyond reality. It is all hypothetical and nothing has actually changed on our side. Things carry on as the roadmap suggests and we will release confirmed information in the usual manner."

 

[fortwodriver]

Things carry on as the roadmap suggests and we will release confirmed information in the usual manner."

Yup... "things carry on" ... Something similar happened in another industry I deal with... Where there was a casual conversation that was set up by essentially a user-group and the "boss" got on camera and began guessing just a little too much about what head office really had planned. It also got pulled quickly.

I'm sure the last thing they want is for rumours to evolve into hatred if things they talked about don't actually happen...

 

[Aristophanes]

Was anyone drinking a latte?

Its not causal if no one is drinking a latte.