OM Digital UK Q&A

RS86

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
981
Location
Finland
Real Name
Riku
The lenses where PDAF gives a performance advantage are all larger and handle poorly on an ungripped E-M5.3, as PDAF really only benefits C-AF use and that generally means telephoto's and/or faster lenses suitable for action shooting. And the gripped E-M5.3 is frankly marginally larger than an E-M1.2. When running ungripped, the E-M5.3 doesn't take advantage of most of its advantages over the E-M10's as sealing isn't available on compact lenses (barring the 12-45) and it lost the bigger battery and better EVF of the E-M5.2 and even gripped it no longer has vertical grip support so no dual battery option.



The problem with the E-M5.3 is that it's way more expensive than an E-M10.4 with few advantages when used off a tripod or ungripped, and much less camera than a E-M1.2 when on a tripod or gripped. It's a good camera on its own, but it loses out on most comparisons to the models next to it.

It would be different if it had come in at the $999 price point, it is a better body than the E-M10.4 all-around, but not as much so as the E-M5.2 was to the E-M10.2 or E-M10.3. But it's expensive enough that it's cheaper to get a used E-M1.2 (and in fact you can probably get an E-M1.2 and a E-M10.2 used for the cost of an E-M5.3 + grip new).

As a result, it doesn't look like the E-M5.3 is moving much of all.

I still don't understand how PDAF doesn't work well with all the lenses. Lens resolution affects its performance, but I haven't heard that cheaper lenses are bad with it. Why can't one use C-AF with people shots for example without much action? Or with wide to normal angle lenses, especially if shooting wide open?

I agree with some of your points, but not nearly all. Can't bother to start arguing about it for long.

I would have never bought E-M10 IV (I bought new E-M10 II for cheap), and I think there is much more between E-M10 IV & E-M5 III than you give credit for.

E-M1 II vs E-M5 III is not a big problem imo. A new E-M1 II has been always more expensive, and many people value smaller size more like I said. I'm pretty sure I will never buy E-M1 sized camera, but won't promise.
 

PakkyT

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
4,263
Location
Massachusetts, USA
How much of the camera manufacturers issues revolve around the dramatic shift to AI?

Ah, "AI" the most vague and overly used buzzword when talking about photography. Our cameras already all use artificial intelligence and have for many years (for example face and eye detection). So unless someone is going to come up with a more specific name that describe a specific thing they are trying to describe, "AI" is mostly meaningless as a term to describe the future of photography as it is no different that saying cameras will get faster and better processors that will do many "things".
 

RAH

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
1,800
Location
New Hampshire
Real Name
Rich
What E-M1.3 features does it have that aren't in Firmware 3.x on the E-M1.2? Aside from USB charge, I'm not aware of any.
OK, you're right - apparently the only thing the E-M5.3 has that the E-M1.2 doesn't have is the USB charging ability (as far as features). So the E-M5.3 is a scaled down E-M1.2 with USB charging.

Regardless of all this, if you want a m43 camera that has these features - 1) small body; 2) hi-res mode; 3) USB charging - the only camera is the E-M5.3. I was enticed by the E-M1.2 and thought long and hard about it, but ultimately, gee, I don't want to carry around a camera that is that large on a trip. If I need a better grip on the camera when I get back home, I can add one to the E-M5.

When the E-M10.4 came out, I liked the look of it a lot, but without hi-res, it's a non-starter. If it weren't for hi-res, I might chose an E-M10.4 over the E-M5.3. But even there, the E-M10.4 didn't exist when I bought the E-M5.3 (plus it would not have been certain that Oly wouldn't once again put the 16MP sensor in the E-M10.4).

I think there are a lot of people for whom the E-M5.3 checks all their requirements (especially size). I do think that $1000 is the correct price for it, not $1200. But there are a lot of sales at that lower price.
 

BDR-529

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
791
Well considering the EM10 series is reported as their best seller in Japan and it also sells [or did so] in Australia as well according to my local shop it would not be wise in my way of looking at things to only cater for the minority of Olympus users who purchase the flag ship models

This may be the case but the real question is "can OMDS, or anyone else for that matter, make any money out of these sub-$1000€ models in a market that moves under 8mio units per year"?

If you ask any camera manufacturer the answer seems to be an unanimous "NO". Everyone is following a new startegy where they concentrate entirely on higher end models.

Unfortunately it looks like only current entry level models will stay in production as long as there's still demand because R&D and manufacturing set-up costs have been long since amortized and they are at least somewhat profitable "as is".

Nobody seems to have plans to invest in truly new budget models because the profit margin is too low and they are the next category that will be wiped out by smartphonese with AI image processing features.
 

retiredfromlife

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
4,773
Location
Sydney, Australia
This may be the case but the real question is "can OMDS, or anyone else for that matter, make any money out of these sub-$1000€ models in a market that moves under 8mio units per year"?

If you ask any camera manufacturer the answer seems to be an unanimous "NO". Everyone is following a new startegy where they concentrate entirely on higher end models.

Unfortunately it looks like only current entry level models will stay in production as long as there's still demand because R&D and manufacturing set-up costs have been long since amortized and they are at least somewhat profitable "as is".

Nobody seems to have plans to invest in truly new budget models because the profit margin is too low and they are the next category that will be wiped out by smartphonese with AI image processing features.
While I agree in principle all the manufacturing plants I have worked in needed a base product that makes no profits but keeps the overheads down for the items you make that do make a profit. Without these your overheads are too high per unit. Now my experience has only been in the metals and pharmaceutical industries so that may differ in electonics, but they still have to keep overhead down somehow and if you sell less units overall they just go up.

But this is pure guesswork on my behalf as I know zilch about the camera business.
 

piggsy

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Messages
1,619
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Ah, "AI" the most vague and overly used buzzword when talking about photography. Our cameras already all use artificial intelligence and have for many years (for example face and eye detection). So unless someone is going to come up with a more specific name that describe a specific thing they are trying to describe, "AI" is mostly meaningless as a term to describe the future of photography as it is no different that saying cameras will get faster and better processors that will do many "things".

AI/ML/neural networks/whatever you want to call it has its own history. It's like hardware transform and lighting & portable shaders becoming a thing in consumer 3d graphics. Yes you could do a thing, narrowly and expensively and usually only as written to very custom hardware. Now you can do a thing that manipulates an image based on a transferrable model between programs and architectures. It is a big deal! It's Ok to call it as its own thing.
 

John King

Member of SOFA
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
2,843
Location
Beaumaris, Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
John ...
While I agree in principle all the manufacturing plants I have worked in needed a base product that makes no profits but keeps the overheads down for the items you make that do make a profit. Without these your overheads are too high per unit. Now my experience has only been in the metals and pharmaceutical industries so that may differ in electonics, but they still have to keep overhead down somehow and if you sell less units overall they just go up.
Its called 'contribution margin', but the self-proclaimed experts in this thread demonstrate their misunderstanding of corporate accounting and cost accounting with every post they make. Same crowd that infests DPR ...
 
Joined
Jul 13, 2020
Messages
435
Location
Hoher Fläming, Germany
Real Name
Phill
If the new sensor has a much faster sensor readout I wonder if OMDS would consider removing the mechanical shutter from the next EM10 or PENF to reduce size/weight while providing more room for better IBIS. This could be something unique to m43.
As stupid as I may sound but: I wouldn't buy such a Pen-F. I know a shutter isn't great: It can break at some point, maybe sooner maybe later, it can cause shutter shock which leads to blurred pictures. However I still like that fully mechanical sound and the slight vibration and feedback the camera gives when hitting the shutter button. However I can see why many people are excited about the possibility to get rid of it and I think it's clearly going in that direction with mirrorless cameras at some point in the future. With maybe Leica sticking with it...

Also, I'm not sure what you mean here: "Either the Mark III was too late and should've been released much earlier or they should've brought it up more to E-M1 Mark III levels in terms of features and internals." Your sentence is confusing because I cannot tell what the first reference to "Mark III" means - the E-M1 or the E-M5.
  • The E-M5.2 came out almost one and a half years after the E-M1.1 - it offered a similar feature set, in a still premium built, rugged shell. Featured an improved IBIS which enabled the first generation High-Res mode.
  • The E-M1.2 came out roughly one and a half years after E-M5.2 - it offered a clear step up on pretty much everything: Better sensor, better processing unit, better AF, improved 2nd generation high-res mode, again slightly improved IBIS.
  • At this point, people started waiting for a slimmed down version of the latest E-M1, the E-M5.3, which we know didn't happen. In interviews Olympus people have been asked about a new E-M5 over and over again, however they always avoided a clear answer.
  • The E-M5.3 however got released more than three years(!) after the E-M1.2 - to my knowledge it didn't offer anything new when compared to the E-M1.2 (please correct me if I'm wrong) and people even said in reviews "It's an E-M1.2 in a more compact housing." Considering it's been three years between the latest E-M1 and the newest E-M5, I think this is fairly lackluster. I was also disappointed by just seeing a single C-Mode on the dial, the E-M1.2 offered C1-C3, the Pen-F even offers C1-C4.
  • The E-M1.3 got released not even half a year, I think it's been barely five months after the E-M5.3 - it offered a new imaging processor, again a fairly improved IBIS, 3rd generation High-Res which enabled hand-held shooting, improved AF, Live-ND filter and that Starry Sky AF.

At the point we knew about the E-M5.3 and it also seemed it was pretty much the E-M1.2 hardware in a compact shell, we already knew about the upcoming E-M1.3. So I say the E-M5.3, the way it is, should've been released sometime in early or mid 2018. When the E-M1.2 was still "fresh" and the E-M1.3 was still an unknown factor. However by late 2019 and with the E-M1.2 pretty much already replaced by it's own predecessor, I would've liked the E-M5.3 to incorporate more stuff from the upcoming E-M1 body, not the one which was already being replaced. It should've featured the newer processor, HHHR, Live-ND and so on. Even if they would've made it more expansive that way.

Personally I'd like to see both lines co-exist in the future, however both should be treated in a similar way and offer a similar sheet of features, without the E-M5 being essentially left a full E-M1 generation behind. Both should offer:
Durable, rugged, build quality
Full set of features
Weather sealing

They can be differentiated by the bodies themselves and their own pros and cons:
  • The E-M1 would of course be larger with a DSLR styled grip. It houses a bigger battery and has support for a full battery grip. The bigger body offers more controls and buttons (AF-joystick and D-Pad) and also incorporates two SD-card slots.
  • The E-M5 should stay more compact and lighter. It houses a smaller, less powerful battery. The smaller body, while still offering the same basic control scheme, has fewer buttons and no joystick. Also there's only room for a single SD-card.

While features pretty much stay identical between future E-M1 and E-M5 iterations, the physical differences should be enough to make each line meaningful. I doubt any wildlife photographers would've opted for an E-M5.3 instead of an E-M1.3 even if the former would have the latter's identical set of features, because they'd like a bigger shell for bigger lenses and being able to install a battery grip when needed.

Regarding the plastic: I am just disappointed that a line which always has been a more compact but yet still "professional" camera, has stepped down in terms of build quality. If the premium plastic housing is so great and durable: Why didn't they use it on the E-M1.3 to save a couple of grams? I might be the minority here, but I care about build quality and haptics on a camera, one of the few reasons why I keep using my Pen-Fs and the plastic shell is pretty a major reason why I wouldn't consider the E-M5.3 for myself.
 

retiredfromlife

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
4,773
Location
Sydney, Australia
Regarding the plastic: I am just disappointed that a line which always has been a more compact but yet still "professional" camera, has stepped down in terms of build quality. If the premium plastic housing is so great and durable: Why didn't they use it on the E-M1.3 to save a couple of grams? I might be the minority here, but I care about build quality and haptics on a camera, one of the few reasons why I keep using my Pen-Fs and the plastic shell is pretty a major reason why I wouldn't consider the E-M5.3 for myself.
I think a lot of us here think the same way regarding the EM5.3 body.
On a pure asthetics point for me they just don't feel premium, just a cost cutting measure. But then again I feel the same way towards the new EM10 line, and I will be very dissapointed when mine dies.
 

StefanKruse

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
634
Location
Denmark
Real Name
Stefan
Probably what he meant, was that they don't know how all the buyers suddenly appeared. Of course they know who ordered, but that's really just a name and an order number. What they don't know is why the demand so drastically exceeds their expectations. They don't know the people behind the order numbers and they are probably wondering if they suddenly got a foot into the pro market (not likely imo) , or if amateur bird photographers are much happier spending 7.5k on a lens than they originally thought (much more likely, imo).

I think the biggest reason for the whole upward movement of the photomarket can be seen here. Companies are all trying to go after a lesser number of big spenders as the global economic divide gets larger and larger. While most people can only justify the cost of their phone camera (it is good enough after all), a small percentage of mostly people with plenty of money to spend are chasing ultimate image quality, regardless of whether their skills actually match that image quality.

The people in the middle who want better IQ and creative options but don't need the very best of the best get fewer and fewer. This is the reason that mu43 struggles and that a lens such as this one can attract plenty of buyers is a good sign that maybe premium optics can persuade people to stay despite of the perceived lesser quality sensor.
Could the high-demand of that lens be due to the upcoming summer and winter Olympics? Has there been a hiring spree or contract-spree for photographers in Japan to prepare for both?
I think that demand has increased because for "a lot" of people the pandemic has freed up resources i.e. no travelling, no restaurants etc. that money can then go into buying other stuff like lenses etc. I know not everyone is that fortunate, but a lot of people are and being locked down has also made a lot of people spend more time outside, pursuing hobbies like photography as you cant go to the movies, meet friends/family for dinners etc. So maybe this can somewhat explain the increased demand for a high-end/high cost lens, which many had deemed a massive commercial miss.
 
Last edited:

RickinAust

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
300
Location
Australia
I haven't seen many previous E-M5 owners complain too much about their cameras being too heavy. Instead being a compact, rugged high-end alternative, it looked more like some afterthought version where Olympus cheaped out.
Agree I dropped my EM5 Mk1 on concrete and put a dent in the corner, but it still works OK. I don't think I'd like to do that with the Mk3.
I was thinking of upgrading to the Mk3 but the plastic body and reports of issues with the tripod mount have put me off.
 

RAH

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
1,800
Location
New Hampshire
Real Name
Rich
The E-M5.2 came out almost one and a half years after the E-M1.1 ...
...
However by late 2019 and with the E-M1.2 pretty much already replaced by it's own predecessor, I would've liked the E-M5.3 to incorporate more stuff from the upcoming E-M1 body, not the one which was already being replaced. It should've featured the newer processor, HHHR, Live-ND and so on. Even if they would've made it more expansive that way.
Nice summary of the full sequence. I wasn't paying much attention with those earlier models, being happy at that time with my E-M10.1 and .2. Thanks for the info!
Personally I'd like to see both lines co-exist in the future, however both should be treated in a similar way and offer a similar sheet of features, without the E-M5 being essentially left a full E-M1 generation behind. Both should offer:
Durable, rugged, build quality
Full set of features
Weather sealing
...
I agree except I don't care about the weather sealing. If they can do it without adding much weight or cost, sure!

I know what everyone means who dislikes the plastic - I'd rather that it was made with metal too. But I'm more interested in the weight, as long as it holds up. I think it will. We shall see...
 

rogazilla

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
46
Location
NC, USA
I think pursuing sports and wild life at the moment makes a lot of sense. This is something not easily replicated by cell phone. While EM1 series X and Mark 2, Mark 3 does not have a real size advantage compare to other mirrorless FF or APSC now but the lens package does. Went to airshow back in 2019 and walking around with my M1.2 with the P100-400 while huge in term of m43, comparing to Canon, Nikon DSLR FF with FF lenses, its tiny. In telephoto for wild life and sport, the issue of shallow depth of field also diminishes. The only issue comes down to high iso and high shutter speed to freeze actions. I think this is where the new PRO zoom is having such high demand and I think combined with em1x have a real advantage. Therefore it makes sense to update em1x to address the issue to match AF with sony? cleaner high ISO image?

EM5 is stuck in a weird place in my opinion knowing the above. it is the same price as em1.2 at the moment. Knowing em10 is selling like hot cake in Japan, it probably make sense to merge the product. It is a shame because I love em5 series for its size, capability and weather sealing. Maybe they would seal em10?! Weather seal in my opinion is a selling point over people's cell phone.
 

RAH

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
1,800
Location
New Hampshire
Real Name
Rich
EM5 is stuck in a weird place in my opinion knowing the above. it is the same price as em1.2 at the moment. Knowing em10 is selling like hot cake in Japan, it probably make sense to merge the product. It is a shame because I love em5 series for its size, capability and weather sealing. Maybe they would seal em10?! Weather seal in my opinion is a selling point over people's cell phone.
I don't think it would make sense to merge the E-M5 and E-M10 because the result would be about $1000 (which the price of the current E-M5.3 SHOULD be, IMHO). They already tried to differentiate the two models when they dumbed-down the E-M10.3. They succeeded and made a lot of former E-M10 users very angry (me included). So many E-M10 users hugged their E-M10.2 models and waited for the new E-M5.3 and bought it when it came out (me included).

But they DO need a less expensive entry OMD camera, IMHO, and the E-M10.4 is nicely positioned that way. But they also need a higher-level SMALL camera too, hence the E-M5. OK, so it would be good if it had ALL the features of the E-M1.3. So I think that's what they should do - make the next E-M5 have all the features of the next E-M1 that can fit in a smaller body. I am now agreeing with some folks who mentioned this above, although I originally disagreed. Trouble there is - don't hold your breath waiting... :)
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
46
They will probably slim down to three lines - the em5, the em1 and the em1x. I know everyone doesn’t agree, but all the camera manufacturers are moving up-market. Everyone is going to kill their entry level bodies.

My hope is that they come out with an em1x mark ii that’s got killer af, on the level of the Canon R5 / Sony A9 ii.
 

hoodlum

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
566
Location
Toronto Canada
I don't think that many people watched. In fact, it was probably pulled more because it wasn't really a helpful interview, anyway.

It had 1700 views earlier this morning. Here is the official statement from OMDS.


https://www.e-group.uk.net/forum/fo...-mark-thackara-joins-us-again-next-week/page2

The official statement is: "We have removed this video at the request of Olympus. Although this was a very generalised discussion, some parts were subject to misinterpretation."
 

fortwodriver

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
1,231
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Frank
It had 1700 views earlier this morning. Here is the official statement from OMDS.


https://www.e-group.uk.net/forum/fo...-mark-thackara-joins-us-again-next-week/page2

The official statement is: "We have removed this video at the request of Olympus. Although this was a very generalised discussion, some parts were subject to misinterpretation."

That's OMDS UK? and Olympus were the ones that asked that it be removed?

It actually surprised me that he gave the Q&A more than that they decided it should be removed. Looks like there's a lot of butt-hurt about the video being shared outside their little community, too.
 

Latest posts

Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Forum GIFs powered by GIPHY: https://giphy.com/
Copyright © Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom