Olympus Video

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by OzRay, Apr 4, 2014.

  1. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    Not really having shot much video, I've been playing around with the E-M1 in movie mode to see what it can do. Overall, I think the video quality is pretty good, but seriously let down because it only allows you to shoot at 30fps and no option of either 24/25fps, which seem to be the preferred standards. I know that video hasn't been a priority for Olympus, but the least they could have done is given an option. From a bunch of reading I've done, there is no ideal way to convert 30fps video to 24/25fps without creating all sorts of unpleasant issues, so this will remain a problem unless Olympus offers a firmware update to allow 24/25fps and PAL.

    It's after doing a number of video trials and conversions that I've discovered what an Achilles' Heel this restriction is when you want to do such things as work on video clips. I tried out some slow and fast panning tests today and in MOV format and when converted to a format that allows 30fps (WMV), the results are very good, but when the conversion format only allows 24/25fps, it becomes streaky and ugly looking. These sorts of complaints have been levelled at many camera manufacturers for a number of years (I wasn't aware of the implications until now) and it's amazing that such options have been omitted by Olympus.

    Olympus often takes giant leaps forward, only to leave half the troops behind.
     
  2. tosvus

    tosvus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    632
    Jan 4, 2014
    Yes, it's a bit odd. They have pretty much declared that Photography is their (big) top priority though, while Panasonic has gone for much more of a hybrid approach. With the IBIS, if they could fix the frame rate limitation and have clean HDMI or a bit higher bitrate (though not horrible today by any means), this would be great for handheld shooting. The funny thing is that unlike Panasonic, they don't have a videocamera market they need to worry about cannibalizing. Nikon is the same thing, never quite making it on the video front, and they have nothing to lose either. Panasonic is going all out and not worrying about their higher end stuff, while Sony and Canon to a larger degree seem to protect their pro video lines.

    Due to omissions like this, and since I'm a hybrid shooter, I had to go with the GH3 , which I'm happy with my GH3, except lack of focus peaking (coming in GH4) and lack of IBIS, which would have been nice for manual adapted lenses (not coming to GH4).
     
  3. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    I've done a few changes to the Vimeo videos I posted earlier (waiting for them to install) and by following the Vimeo guidelines when I converted the videos, they look to present better on-screen. I'll see if the Vimeo outcomes are better than original, as they are now at the native fps and 720p, which is all Vimeo allows for the basic account. I'm using Cyberlink PowerDirector 12 and slowly learning what I can do with the program. Just trying to get my head around the basics first, before trying anything else. Once I know that I can post good quality to Vimeo, then I can look at editing etc.
     
  4. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    As an additional point, I took some slow and fast panning shots today and both came out quite good, without the streaking that some claim they get with Olympus video. I then converted some stills from the fast pan and the results are surprisingly good. Once I'm able to post the pans onto Vimeo, I provide a link and a shot from the fast pan so that you can see what it's like.
     
  5. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    OK, here's the video of a fast pan: https://vimeo.com/91051192. I think Vimeo still changes things, even though it's been converted according to their instructions.

    Here's a still capture from the original video using 'Free Video to JPG Converter'; just a straight conversion with no post-processing at all (not too shabby and click on the image for the full size):

    P4050893 45.
     
  6. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    I wouldn't say that 24/25 fps is "preferred" but rather it is in vogue. The exception to this statement is if you live in Europe or other PAL countries and need the 25fps to meet the PAL standard. Here in the USA we use NTSC and it is 30 fps . The 24 fps is for the cinematic look which if done right and for the right reasons is great but too many people shoot it just because it is the fad. Some cinematographers are using much higher frame rates. For instance the Hobbit films are at 48 fps! I shoot at 30 fps unless I want a special look.

    Your still from the pan looks very good - I don't see any issues with it.
     
  7. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    In Oz we use PAL. Apparently only Japan and the US use NTSC (could be wrong). It's just that everything seems to be geared towards 24/25fps; that's the norm for the likes of my software and even Vimeo prefers it. It wold have been great to be able to choose between the two (25 or 30 fps).

    I was completely surprised by the still from the fast pan, especially after another thread showed a really horrid still from an E-PL5, compared to one from a GX7. That kind of motivated me to take a better look at what the E-M1 can achieve.
     
  8. M4/3

    M4/3 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    713
    Sep 24, 2011
    The big news in the video world is the extremely detailed footage the Sony FDR-AX100 camcorder delivers: https://vimeo.com/90649337
    It's far above and beyond the detail regular DSLR's and m4/3 cameras can deliver.
     
  9. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    Yep, it's really becoming another competition between dedicated video cameras and hybrid DSLRs. And dedicated video cameras like the Blackmagic etc provide the ability to change lenses and increase scope which was, until fairly recently, somewhat lacking. I do wonder whether hybrid DSLRs will be overtaken by dedicated video cameras in the near future, for pure video.

    For me, video is just an aside and if I wanted to get more involved, I'd look at the Blackmagic, purely because I have lenses that it can accommodate. I mean, it has to be easier than this:

    zacuto-panasonic-lumix-gh4-2.

    zacuto-panasonic-lumix-gh4-3.

    http://www.zacuto.com/panasonic-lumix-gh4
     
  10. jamespetts

    jamespetts Mu-43 Top Veteran

    803
    May 21, 2011
    London, England
    You only need 24p or 25p if you are cutting your footage together with other footage shot at 24p/25p, or you need to output to broadcast television in a PAL country (in which case, you need 25p, not 24p). If your videos are just for distribution using computers (including tablets and smartphones), 30p is better as it captures a little more motion detail. 30p is the standard for Youtube. What is really lacking on the Olympus cameras is a higher framerate such as 60p, which is commonly used in high definition work.
     
  11. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Canada uses it too as do most Central/South American countries. Of coarse for the most part NTSC has been or at least is in the process of being replaced with new digital standards. The biggest reason why to stick with the old standard is light flicker.

    Never heard of software being that particular about frame rate before. All of my editing has been with Final Cut and I never noticed that problem. Converting from one to another can cause problems however. Make sure your settings are right. When I have issues I often find it is because I have a setting wrong someplace. I have never used Vimeo so I have no clue there.



    DSLR is not as big as you think with pros. Very few use it exclusively and many do not use it at all, especially if they have access to larger sensor pro camcorders. The DSLR for video thing happened by accident and is mostly used by wanna-be movie makers and low level productions because it offered the best bang for the buck. A true dedicated video camcorder is far better for production, even at the low level.

    I work for a church and we film a weekly Bible study. A couple of years ago when we decided we should step forward and go HD I was given the job of finding the best gear{within our budget of under $10k for 2 cameras}. I considered using DSLRs as well as the GH but they lacked in some areas, for instance mic input{XLR inputs are best and sound was super critical for us}. All said and done I decided the best solution for us was the Panasonic AF100. I do not regret it a bit, even with the new GH4 and the audio port unit it has. The ergonomics of a camcorder are just so much better for filming and those extra pro features come in very handy. For instance the AF100 has built in timecode with sync out, waveform/vectorscope, ND filters, true variable frame rate{low as 12 and up to 60 with many choices between}. It also has TOTAL manual control of all the features through easy to access controls. These are well above the average user's needs but DSLRs do not have them.
     
  12. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    The editing parameters that come with Cyberlink PowerDirector 12 all reflect the PAL standard, but I found a custom option that allows me to convert to 30fps so that I don't lose quality. I went through the Vimeo guide and followed their instructions on uploading and when the file upload is complete, I always get a message saying that the frame rate is not ideal. I have a feeling that Vimeo converts the files to 25fps regardless of the fact that I've used their recommendations. I use Vimeo basically because it offers far better quality and because I don't like Google and don't want to sign up to anything they control (I have no Google account).

    At the moment I'm just learning about video and I don't think it's going to be a major thing for me, but I don't want to discount it either, so becoming acquainted with what is required is important. Some of the stuff we do out bush would be better recorded on video and some use a GoPro, and while the results are pretty good, the GoPro seems a right pain to use with no screen, just one lens and pretty poor controls.
     
  13. D7k1

    D7k1 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    690
    Nov 18, 2013
    . ******Done a lot more testing and most of this information is helpful, I now think that the 720P MJPEG is NOT as good as the 1080P on the current (OMD 5/10, EP5, and Em-1). but the guidelines expect for MJPEG so to be good*****
    "
    The quoted process is the exact thing I have recommended in the past. MJPEG vs storage is not recommended for daily use. It is incredibly heavy in storage requirements and should only be used if your doing some real work with your footage.

    1080 Fine = Extremely detailed static scenes with little overall movement or panning in the scene. Filming raindrops in a puddle is too much for this mode, fast reactions to movement is also too much. This is for planned or overall controlled shots.

    1080 Normal = Detailed scenes where movement is intended panning or otherwise. It will take a lot to ruin the capture in this mode and the sharpness of the overall capture is more than enough for any use. It's also good if your not worried about storage space.

    720 Fine = This is nearly equal to the 1080 Normal but at a smaller resolution. This is good for high quality family outings, think Disneyland where high detail is desired but motion will be constant. This would be useful where you know a lot of footage will be taken over several hours of overall recording and storage space is a consideration.

    720 Normal = Social events, such as a family gathering or an event where you want to capture the event but know it's not going to be used for much else other than personal use or may be deleted some time down the road. Detailed enough to provide a great picture and light enough on storage requirements that you don't have to worry about capturing some video every so often.

    Keep in mind all of the above are done with variable bit rates all with a different average bit rate. The problem with the OMD and its bitrate cap is the detail capture is so high that you hit the ceiling of what it can capture pretty fast and this leads to the "mudding" artifacts. It's a 50/50 that you will see it in 1080 Fine depending on the scene and the odds drop considerably each time you go down to the next lower option. I won't even discuss the lowest options. They have their use I am sure but you don't buy a camera of this quality for the lowest options.

    The MPJEG modes are intense. The detail capture has absolutely no mudding and the bitrate is constantly high so it provides the best picture quality if your intention is to later post process the results. I have seen 720 to 4k resolution conversations that are then output to 1080 and you can't even tell the difference the detail is just so high."

    I have found that the motion jpeg files (after the 720 settings in the move quality menu) report at over 30 Mbites and are as he says very large. But the quality is very, very good. Try it on the same subject against 1080P and see which you like better with movement (either subject or camera). I use Vegas/Movie Studio which mixes 30fps 720p & 1080P 30 fps easily.
     
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  14. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    I might have to try 1080 Normal, but having used 1080 Fine for everything so far, I haven't experienced anything bad by doing so, at least from what I've seen.

    I just went out and took video of the same scene at 1080 fine, 1080 normal and MJPEG. MJPEG was horrid and a 33.8MB file vs 1080 fine at 22MB. The difference between 1080 fine and normal was hard to tell, but panning did look to be smoother with the 1080 normal. Still images captured from the two movies were pretty much the same. The file size saving wasn't all that great with the 1080 fine at 22MB and the 1080 normal at 18.9MB.
     
  15. speedandstyle

    speedandstyle Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    There is a rear screen for the GoPro, optional and you have to pay more, but there is one. I can't believe after all this time and numerous upgrades that GoPro hasn't figured out interchangeable lenses! There are some companies that make kits to mount cs lenses to the GoPro but they are rather pricey. There is another brand that has an action cam with both a built in rear screen and changeable lenses - the Cam One Infinity.
    http://www.camonetec.com/en/COIN01en.html
     
  16. OzRay

    OzRay Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 29, 2010
    South Gippsland, Australia
    Ray, not Oz
    You can view what the Go Pro sees via an app on an Android phone, but when I watch what my mate has to go though to set it up, I shake my head. The Go Pro produces some of the best video I've seen from that type of camera, but in my view it tends to be a 'Point and Pray' camera. I don't really have a need for something so small and the most I'd do is dash mount the camera in my 4WD for some shots, but the vast majority would be while I'm holding the camera, taking shots of others etc. I sort of think that my 8mm 4/3 fisheye would become a 24mm lens on a Blackmagic, which would be a very interesting combination, and I have a bag of M mount lenses that could serve all sorts of uses as well.
     
  17. sgreszcz

    sgreszcz Mu-43 Veteran

    439
    Oct 7, 2012
  18. sgreszcz

    sgreszcz Mu-43 Veteran

    439
    Oct 7, 2012
    You can always convert down to 24/25 fps if you don't care about dialogue and are just editing to music. It will be slightly slower motion giving a "dreamy" sort of look.

    Also 60fps would be easier to shoot as you can select 125 shutter speed to get 180o shutter and you would need less neutral density when shooting outside. Also this would allow for even more slow motion if you conform your edit to 24/25 fps
     
  19. M4/3

    M4/3 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    713
    Sep 24, 2011
    So far no GH4 footage samples have surfaced that show the GH4 can resolve as much detail as the Sony AX100. So in upcoming head to head shootouts, the AX100 will likely win on sharpness and detail resolution. The GH4 will likely win in other respects such as less rolling shutter.
    [video=youtube;TuSMrQdE5RQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuSMrQdE5RQ[/video]
     
  20. D7k1

    D7k1 Mu-43 Top Veteran

    690
    Nov 18, 2013
    OzRay - Interesting. Today I tested it outdoors and indeed the got good results with all three codecs. And yes the fine vs regular did not seem that different, as did the MJPEG. Also I did some very fast pan's and they all seemed pretty much the same (same amount of blurring & similar sharpness) Unfortunately, I forgot to record what shutter speed + ISO I took this group at. Overall, I've found that the EP5 video is vastly better than my old EPL1. In fact it is similar to my 7000/7100 - although much easier to shoot.

    I encoded this test with MPEG2 at 25 Mbps. I'd have to say I'm pretty happy with the results I get. Next test will be waterfowl and see what the motion looks like with them. I do wish we could have a 60 fps of some type on this camera.