Olympus and Godox flash and Kelvin issues.

Mack

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
1,232
Ran into an odd problem using the Godox flash on the E1M2. If I set the camera to 5,200K, most editing software reports it is as 4,600 Kelvin and blue on the screen (Gray card or Expodisc facing the flash). Looking at the resultant histogram in the camera shows the Blue as being further to the right than the white, red, or green displayed too.

If I raise the camera to 6,400 Kelvin, then the blue moves to the left and matches the red, green, and white. Screen looks gray too. Software also reports the Kelvin as now being 5,200 Kelvin.

Seems, in short, the camera is getting the wrong Kelvin data from the Godox flash even though it is firing.


Another issue is the small Olympus flash supplied with the E1M2 has four pins plus the larger center one. The Godox flash units as well as my non-Olympus extension cable has only three pins plus larger center much as what is on the bottom of the Godox flashes (i.e. Godox and third party have 4 pins total, and Olympus has 5 pins...???).

Odd part is if I put the Olympus flash onto the extension cable it will not fire. It also will not fire off the top hot shoe of the Godox X1T-O either which only has the center pin for a shoe and not smaller data (??) pins. It will fire on the camera shoe though as it should. Godox will fire off the cable though.

Something is different with the four-pin hookups verses the Olympus five-pins hook-ups. The incorrect data off the Godox might be what is missing, but not firing the Olympus flash is baffling and must be something to do with that 5th pin.

Could be that any flash fill in daylight may be a lot colder if the camera thinks a 5,500 K flash is producing a bluer flash image. My Sekonic color temperature meter reports the flash as 5,500 K, but the EVF looks blue and the software reports it as 4,700 K too. Bit baffling as to what is happening. I've tried it with the WB+Flash on and off both in the camera's menu, and ON it is blue and stays pretty much at ~5,500K. Turning it OFF allows me to use gels and set the WB manually, but the discrepancy and non-ability to fire the Olympus flash is odd.
 

wjiang

Mu-43 Legend
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
7,638
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
  1. The camera does not get flash colour temperature electronically (how could it, we often use modifiers on flash such as gels)
  2. The auto flash WB assumes exclusive lighting with flash WITHOUT modifiers or much ambient contribution. Add either and it will be off.
  3. The extra pin on the FL-LM3 is DC power (it draws power from the camera itself). This pin is not part of the normal control pin out for Olympus and Panasonic flashes, and you will not find it on most m4/3 bodies.
 

davidzvi

Super Moderator
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
4,023
Location
Outside Boston MA
Real Name
David
  1. The camera does not get flash colour temperature electronically (how could it, we often use modifiers on flash such as gels)
  2. The auto flash WB assumes exclusive lighting with flash WITHOUT modifiers or much ambient contribution. Add either and it will be off.
  3. The extra pin on the FL-LM3 is DC power (it draws power from the camera itself). This pin is not part of the normal control pin out for Olympus and Panasonic flashes, and you will not find it on most m4/3 bodies.
So far in m4/3 this is true. But I know Nikon has actually started passing filter/gel color information from flash to camera. They have colored filter clips with chips and clear ones with standard color gels that you can program into the flash. Not all camera bodies recognize the the settings, but some do. It started with the SB-700 I believe.


As I recall only the Panasonic GX8, GM5, GX85, and LX100 (maybe the G7?) had the extra pin. It's one of things that appointed me about the G85, G9, and GX9. I wish they would have kept it, it's REAL handy.
 
Last edited:

PakkyT

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
3,351
Location
New England
but not firing the Olympus flash is baffling and must be something to do with that 5th pin.
More likely is a bad cable. I have the original Oly version I got with a flash I bought many years ago (so not a knock off third party brand nor a Canon cable (which are compatible)) one one day out and about with it with my FL-36 it stopped working. Turned out one of the wires broke way from its pin inside the connector. Simple matter for me to open up the connector and resolder the wire to the pin. Otherwise the flash appeared to be working with the camera (flash head would zoom with the lens, etc.).
 

Mack

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
1,232
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
  1. The camera does not get flash colour temperature electronically (how could it, we often use modifiers on flash such as gels)
  2. The auto flash WB assumes exclusive lighting with flash WITHOUT modifiers or much ambient contribution. Add either and it will be off.
  3. The extra pin on the FL-LM3 is DC power (it draws power from the camera itself). This pin is not part of the normal control pin out for Olympus and Panasonic flashes, and you will not find it on most m4/3 bodies.
Re. #1, something must be passing wrong info to various software. If I set the camera to 5,200K it isn't working out that way according to the camera's histogram or the editing software which reports differently.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Oly. RAW is hiding something since they allow for that Warm WB setting in their menu (It was set to OFF - I think?). How this is being added to the RAW file might be the answer. I need to play some more with it, but it is annoying that the flashes color temp meter and what comes out of the camera do not agree and miss by maybe 1,200K too, and where the editing software needs to warm it up a bit with the dropper.

I would think 5,200K set in Manual WB with flash would show 5,200 K in the software, but it is showing me ~4,800K and then the eyedropper alters it to ~5,800K or more to make it gray. The histogram showing the Blue to the right is another issue given the color meter says 5,200K and camera is set to 5,200K but the EVF is blue as is what the histogram is telling me. The Tint in software is bouncing around too, but not that far yet and I have nulled it with the overall WB setting menu by adding one point in the Magenta/Green area.

If I set the Manual WB to 6,400K and trip the flash at a white card or fire directly into the Expodisc gizmo, the histogram is correctly aligned with all bars center and editing software is also happy. I'd have to gel the flash down to maybe 4,800 K otherwise if the camera were set to 5,200 K (Since lower K changes are more dramatic.). Puzzling!

On #3, I agree it is likely the power pin for the small Oly. flash. Too bad Olympus doesn't make a 5-pin cable for their small flash, but they might be since their website shows the normal 4-pin out of stock (So does B&H Photo too.) so maybe they are adding the 5th power pin to a new cable.

Added, on the bottom of the small Oly. flash that comes with their cameras, there is no center pin! Only the four small ones in the back and the front locking pin, but sans any normal hot shoe center pin. They are doing something very weird!

Maybe this cable is called for: https://www.amazon.com/Promaster-Flash-Extension-Cord-Off-Camera/dp/B000UK2R8S

Maybe a Canon flash cord as they have 5 pins?
Check on the above. Friend loaned me his "Canon OC-E3 Off-Camera Shoe Cord" and it does work with the Olympus mini-flash, but flash will not lock onto it. Flash duration is also variable with it to 1/6 stop (What the camera is set at.). Problem is the camera has to be set to 7,400 K for the Olympus mini-flash for the RGB (esp. Blue) to become null on gray card. I'll mention I later bought the Vello branded one for the Canon OC-E3 and it failed to work at all even though it looks like the Canon, but something isn't connecting right nor will it lock onto the flash either. Now waiting for Olympus to respond as to why they don't sell a cable that works with their small FL-LM3 flash unit.


Back to Kelvin outdoors and no flash, seems if my color temperature meter says it is 5,200K outdoors at noon now which it may be, then to get a neutral gray with the E1M2 I need to set 6,000 K. Oddly, the Pen-F follows the same thinking in the settings and wants 6,000 K too.

Dragging out the Nikon D800E, it is happy with a gray at 5,500K or maybe 300 K off, where the Olympus pair is 800 K off. Maybe why Olympus has that Warm Kelvin setting? Dunno what is going on unless the color meter is maybe 300 K off to match Nikon, but Olympus is really cold (bluish) shooting a gray card or through the Expodisc too. I've noted the Nikon seems to produce better skin tones, but it is shooting warmer and much closer to the color temperature meter's reading than the Olympus (by a factor of 2.7 !!!).

Olympus seems to be cooler in color for some reason known to them.
 
Last edited:

Mack

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
1,232
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
Manual white balance is cold with the Olympus E-M1 Mark II and the Pen-F both. If I raise what I measure daylight (5,200 K) to be up to 6,000 K in the camera's CWB = 6,000 K, then the color is much better.

In the image below, I shot the ExpoDisc 2 into the sun where you can see the four sRGB spikes. Same would apply for the gray card as well as I tried it too, just the ExpoDisk 2 spikes are sharper and narrower. Pay attention to where the blue histogram spike is.

In the left one, which is circled CWB 5200 in red and shot at 5,200 Kelvin (Sekonic metered.) you can see the frame is blue. The blue spike of the histogram under it is offset to the right a bit verses the red, and the ExpoDisc 2 image has the blue color.

The right image shot I raised it to 6,000 K (CWB 6000 and circled in green) and you can see the four spikes beneath it and all are in same centered position and the image is gray.

Fwiw, I had to blur and average the E-M1 Mark 2 screen as it had a lot of glare off me and the background around the Pen-F which was shooting the E-M1 Mark II screen, but the blue and gray image shown is correct.

Guess if I want the thing correct, I will need to add 800 K to whatever the Sekonic meter reads if I use Manuel White Balance (CWB), either flash or sunlight.

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 
Last edited:

Mack

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
1,232
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Tried it with flash indoors, both the small one that comes with the two cameras and a larger Godox TT685-O.

Sekonic meter measured the flash as 5,800 Kelvin. Set that into EM-1 Mark II camera as CWB = 5800 and got a blue gray card. Cranked it up to 6800 K which aligned the sRGB histogram spikes. Viola! A "Gray" gray card.

Manual white balance is way off with these cameras, imho.
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)



 

Mack

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
1,232
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
Additional info on the flash cable:

I ordered the flash cable here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00O9U8WW0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 but the one that showed up only has three rearmost pins and not four as shown in the photo. It does not work nor communicate with the camera. It needs the four rearmost pins to work right. So the photo lied!

Luckily, it seems I've got a collection of these cables and the Vello one made for Canon has the five pins, but the female end that the flash mounts to is not correct nor will it lock onto the flash shoe either. The female pins may be further recessed than the Olympus ones too, and the rear plastic ramp up into the shoe is a bit thinner too.

I took the newest one from above with the four pins (3+1) and drilled a hole and put a small brass picture frame nail in the vacant spot that should make it a 5-pin shoe. I then unsoldered the Vello Canon cord from its shoe and resoldered the wires onto the "modified with a nail" shoe and it now works. Fwiw, the Vello cable is nicely made (Wouldn't doubt they make the Canon one either.) vs. the cheap one above so a Vello Canon to a modified Vello Olympus shoe "with an added nail contact" may be a nicer choice. Photo below shows the conversion with the DIY modified one on the right with the Canon male end, and the Olympus (Modified with Nail" female end.

Fwiw, there is a small diode on both the cheap Olympus one form above link, and the green Vello Canon one shown in the photo that protects from high or reverse voltage at the center contact. I used the circuit board with its diode in the cheap Olympus-ended one as it was made for that shoe.

Oh, Olympus responded with "They no longer make their flash cable" (Which had four pins and not the needed five.) so it's pretty much a DIY job now unless you get lucky with a Canon OEM one (Older Canon one worked, but newer didn't so I had to resort to this DIY mess!).

Mack


Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 

Tony Rex

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
382
Location
Melbourne, Australia.
Real Name
Tony Rex

Clint

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
2,388
Location
San Diego area, CA
Real Name
Clint
Mack,
I set my camera for 5200K and Adobe Lightroom tells my 5100K. I would think when using Olympus software it would match-up identically with their cameras.

Before I started using the Godox/Flashpoint equipment I tested and compared them to the Metz, Nikon, Olympus, Profoto and Quantum flash and strobes that I use. The Godox flash, at worst, was within 200K of some of the equipment.
 

felipegeek

Mu-43 Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
288
Location
New York, NY
Real Name
Felipe
Another option for predictable color and white balance are the color/WB calibration tools from X-Rite or Spyder. I've used my friend's X-Rite Color Checker Passport (about $90) on a few occasions. I take a couple photos with the subject holding the color checker in the specific lighting for each scene. I import the the all the photos with LR then select the appropriate color checker shot then run the X-Rite add-in which analyzes the color checker's color squares then creates a calibration profile you can apply to all of the photos shot in the same light. (There is also a standalone tool I've not used.) It does a great job but I tend to forget to take new color checker shots as I make changes and then have to manually compensate for the differences afterwards. Someone more methodical than I would certainly benefit a lot from this tool. I have multiple Godox X1/Flashpoint R2 speedlights and found that my EM5-MkII is usually close on proper white balance in Auto-WB mode but I tend to set it to WB Flash mode for more predictable results usually within 200 kelvin.

I have a Vello Oly TTL cable that worked great when I had my Oly flash side mounted on a bracket but have quit using it since switching to the Godox system with the transmitter in the hot shoe and the Godox flash on the bracket arm or light stand.
 
Last edited:

Mack

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
1,232
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
Something is off with your camera WB... do you have a tint adjust on or something? My E-M5 and E-M1 are both pretty accurate using Kelvin adjustment with what ACR considers to be tungsten, daylight, cloudy, etc.
https://www.mu-43.com/threads/my-sooc-jpeg-em1-mark-ii-settings.99074/
Nothing is set in the tint portion of the menu. Pure straight out of camera using only the Olympus Viewer 3. No post work applied which can fix it, but I just want the camera's SOOC JPEG to be somewhat accurate without going through a lot of post correction work.

The camera, I think, should agree with the color temperature meter but mine does not (My Nikons do agree.). The camera also does not track linear with the Kelvin changes either. Indoors with a low Kelvin it isn't bad, but going outdoors or into the shade is where it differs greatly from the color temperature meter. I put my correction chart in this thread: My SOOC JPEG EM1 Mark II settings.

Olympus support has been mum on the issue too. Could be they are deviating to "What they think it should look like" much as Apple did with their displays that are more contrasty and vivid but not technically accurate.
 

PakkyT

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
3,351
Location
New England
The camera, I think, should agree with the color temperature meter but mine does not (My Nikons do agree.). The camera also does not track linear with the Kelvin changes either. Indoors with a low Kelvin it isn't bad, but going outdoors or into the shade is where it differs greatly from the color temperature meter.
Have you verified the problem isn't your meter? Easy way is to get your hands on a different meter, perhaps one of a different manufacturer might be best, and see if the same Kelvin issues exist with a second meter.
 

Mack

Mu-43 All-Pro
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
1,232
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
Have you verified the problem isn't your meter? Easy way is to get your hands on a different meter, perhaps one of a different manufacturer might be best, and see if the same Kelvin issues exist with a second meter.
Check!

Isn't the meter as daylight is normally around is 5,250 K here and both my Nikons agree with the meter and why I found I cannot trust its reading with the Olympus bodies else I get cold skin color outside. The two brands have different Kelvin thoughts.

My Olympus E1.2 and Pen-F neither agree with the meter and prefer I raise the CWB to 6,000 K and even more with the flash. They start out okay at <2,800 K, but then the Olympus heads towards being bluer much sooner for some reason. I got a boatload of software and none of them are in agreement with each other as to Kelvin and Tint numbers so it's pretty much pot-luck as to how they come up with their results. I'm hoping the Olympus Viewer 3 gets me closer right out of camera over the others since they should know their product line better.

Olympus support will not - or cannot - answer as to why a metered Kelvin does not correspond to their cameras as far as daylight and flash go. It could be their preference too, albeit wrong imho. Something ain't right somewhere.
 
Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Copyright © 2009-2019 Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom