Nikon Z50 mirrorless APS-C camera and two lenses (16-55mm and 50-250mm) to be announced soon

davidzvi

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You are correct. I forgot about the non-OS lenses.
By version, I meant the OS lens. Because for me, I was only interested in a stabilized lens, so I ignored the non-stabilized lens.
Once I used a stabilized lens, there was no going back to a non-stabilized long lens.
OS has very little value in most sports and it's actually recommended to turn it off at higher SS.

Also you missed out on a nice lens in the pre OS lens, I went back and forth between the AF 80-200D, the 70-200 VR1, and the vI & vII of the Sigma.

https://www.blueberryphoto.com/Other/50-150/n-nmFwq/
 

Richard_M

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The issue I see moving forward is backward compatibility with 3rd party lenses and the FTZ adapter. One of the reasons I've moved many of my lenses on, but have kept a few, mostly macro's. I still have a couple of DSLR bodies. There is apparently no new macro on the Nikon lens road map.
 

ac12

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OS has very little value in most sports and it's actually recommended to turn it off at higher SS.

Also you missed out on a nice lens in the pre OS lens, I went back and forth between the AF 80-200D, the 70-200 VR1, and the vI & vII of the Sigma.

https://www.blueberryphoto.com/Other/50-150/n-nmFwq/
IMHO, VR/IS is of significant value, with "some" lenses and sports.
  • I love the VR on my Nikon 70-200 when shooting field sports. Not for the VR on the photo, but the VR when aiming. The VR stabilizes the viewed image, and allows me to hold the AF point on the subject much easier than having the subject bounce around the viewfinder. This was a side benefit of VR that I was not expecting, but was happy to have found.
    • I was looking at the 80-200/2.8 AF lens, and almost bought one, and was sad that I missed it. But once I started using the 70-200/4, the VR totally won me over, and I was glad that I missed the 80-200. Funny how that worked out, in the end.
  • In the gym shooting basketball and volleyball, I agree, I turn IS off or use a non-IS prime. At that close distance, I am not at the level of magnification that the VR/IS makes a difference in aiming.
 

ac12

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The issue I see moving forward is backward compatibility with 3rd party lenses and the FTZ adapter. One of the reasons I've moved many of my lenses on, but have kept a few, mostly macro's. I still have a couple of DSLR bodies. There is apparently no new macro on the Nikon lens road map.
I think that is just the mechanical AF lenses. Even Nikon's AF/AF-D lenses won't autofocus on the FTZ.
I "think" the 3rd party AF-S style electronic AF lenses should work on the FTZ.

There are MANY lenses which are not yet on the Z system lens roadmap.
 

Richard_M

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I think that is just the mechanical AF lenses. Even Nikon's AF/AF-D lenses won't autofocus on the FTZ.
I "think" the 3rd party AF-S style electronic AF lenses should work on the FTZ.

There are MANY lenses which are not yet on the Z system lens roadmap.
There have been a few issues reported by a number of reviewers. e.g. https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-z7/4.

When it comes to third party lens compatibility, our team and our readers had a chance to test some Tamron and Sigma lenses on the Nikon Z7. While every Sigma lens reported to work without any issues, some Tamron lenses are known to have incompatibility issues with the FTZ adapter. Specifically, some of the newest G2-series lenses such as the Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 G2, Tamron SP 70-200mm f/2.8 G2 and Tamron SP 150-600mm G2 caused the Nikon Z7 to display an error message and they did not work. Thankfully, Tamron has already issued firmware updates to a number of its lenses to address this problem.
If you have a 3rd party lens which requires the firmware updated, the lens may need sending back to the manufacturer for updating.
 
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There have been a few issues reported by a number of reviewers. e.g. https://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-z7/4.
If you have a 3rd party lens which requires the firmware updated, the lens may need sending back to the manufacturer for updating.
I hope there is FTZ-2 or some third party adapter that somehow "works" screwdriver lenses. Some of the AF-D are incredible and DC lenses have no replacement. 85mm f1.4D for example, or 105mm DC and 135mm DC... and a minor quibble but FTZ is also missing AI tab so the old manual lenses are not only purely manual, they also are dumb - no exif at all communicated to the body. None of these stop you from taking photos, but just saying. I would have loved to see MF lenses talking to camera.
 

ooheadsoo

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I hope there is FTZ-2 or some third party adapter that somehow "works" screwdriver lenses. Some of the AF-D are incredible and DC lenses have no replacement. 85mm f1.4D for example, or 105mm DC and 135mm DC... and a minor quibble but FTZ is also missing AI tab so the old manual lenses are not only purely manual, they also are dumb - no exif at all communicated to the body. None of these stop you from taking photos, but just saying. I would have loved to see MF lenses talking to camera.
If this existed, I would be a Z6 shooter today. Anyone know why they wouldn't be able to do this?
 
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If this existed, I would be a Z6 shooter today. Anyone know why they wouldn't be able to do this?
The support for MF lenses (AI tab) was probably dropped because the user base is diminishing and those who care would probably convert their beloved AI/AIS lenses to chipped ones by attaching Dandelion or such CPU...this is my guess on what Nikon officials thought. But that isn't as straight forward either- programming those chips is a PITA and not all lenses can be chipped easily, nor would I personally "touch" some of my vintage lenses.
As for AF-D support, I am guessing its Nikon's refusal to open up their AF tech to third party companies. I might be wrong, but third parties have to reverse engineer Nikon's tech and make it work. I believe that is too much work for anyone, now that AF-D lenses are also fast becoming outdated and outclassed with more and more people solely going for incredible sharpness that modern lenses have. I still have some hopes - they did manage to make Sony E mount lenses work on Z mount through an adapter. Lets see!
 

ooheadsoo

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Seems they should be able to do it quite easily, but they want to push people into buying new Z lenses and giving up the old catalog. It's a darn shame for students and other bargain hunters.
 

ac12

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If this existed, I would be a Z6 shooter today. Anyone know why they wouldn't be able to do this?
I theory they could. Many of the dSLRs have both electronic AF-S and mechanical AF autofocus. So they know how much to move the AF-S mechanism and they know how many turns to move the AF screwdriver mechanism.
And if I were a pro, I would want the AF to be as FAST and snappy as a pro body, not the slower consumer D70. So it needs a fast motor with enough torque, which would require a decent amount of peak current draw, so a bigger battery and a bigger heavier FTZ-Mechancial AF adapter.

In practice, I think they want you to BUY new lenses. And one way is to drop support of the older mechanical AF lenses.
 

ooheadsoo

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Buying new lenses is great, but Nikon had been famous for its backwards compatibility. It wasn't perfect, but at least students and others with less means could pick up decent glass without breaking the bank. New customers buying into the new crop mirrorless are going to be discouraged with their results when they use these consumer zooms.
 
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Buying new lenses is great, but Nikon had been famous for its backwards compatibility. It wasn't perfect, but at least students and others with less means could pick up decent glass without breaking the bank. New customers buying into the new crop mirrorless are going to be discouraged with their results when they use these consumer zooms.


We dont know that yet, the CX lenses were cheapish and great IQ.
 

ac12

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Buying new lenses is great, but Nikon had been famous for its backwards compatibility. It wasn't perfect, but at least students and others with less means could pick up decent glass without breaking the bank. New customers buying into the new crop mirrorless are going to be discouraged with their results when they use these consumer zooms.
The average person is not the pixel peeper that we are.

The consumer grade DX/FX Z lenses will probably be no different than the current DX/FX F consumer lenses.
There are less good ones, and there are better ones. Some are quite good, not up to pro level, but still good.

Just because they are consumer grade lenses, I would not write them off as "poor quality optics."

I use a 18-140 on my D7200, and that is plenty good enough for me.
Last year I shot a class picture, 600 kids on the bleacher, 30 yards wide, single frame (not stitched). While you could not see the face details, if you cropped deep enough into the image, for a picture that wide, the school advisor was happy. IOW, it was good enough for the job.

I read very good reports on the image quality on the 70-300 DX AF-P lens.

The backwards compatibility, for entry level (affordable) cameras, was dropped a long time ago.
The entry level DX Nikon D3xxx and D5xxx dSLRs CANNOT autofocus the older mechanical AF/AF-D lenses. They do not have the in-body autofocus motor. Only the electronic AF-S (and maybe AF-P) lenses will autofocus on the D3xxx and D5xxx cameras.
It is only the upper end (more expensive) DX cameras D7xxx and D500 that can autofocus the mechanical AF/AF-D lenses.
 
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Just putting good word for AF-P lenses - unbelievable IQ from these plastic fantastic lenses. 70-300 AFP is phenomenal, best of the lot but 18-55 and 10-20 are very good too. On higher end DSLRs and on Z with FTZ the AF speed and accuracy is nothing short of amazing.

I read very good reports on the image quality on the 70-300 DX AF-P lens.
 

ooheadsoo

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I was thinking more in terms of retaining new customers who are exploring outside the realm of phone photography rather than serious photgraphers looking for lighter kit. The casual crowd is not looking for well corrected and sharp lenses. Most just want to control dof so they can make their subjects pop. Unfortunately, you have to work harder to achieve that with slow lenses, and casuals looking to dabble will get discouraged and go back to their phones. Even with low light, it's not clear these slow dx lenses will offer up a significant advantage to the casual photgrapher despite the much larger sensor. Until the third party manufacturers reverse engineer Nikon's new af protocols, DX needs those fast native budget primes it's never had.

True about Nikon abandoning screw drive for their entry level dx cameras. It's one of the reasons I got the d750; because I can't afford all these first party af-s lenses, but af-d lenses are more compact and affordable. It's still a shame that they're trying to kill off their af-d lens line up all over again, and before the d750's successor has even been announced. Nikon legacy lens compatibility was a big factor in keeping me in the system. If all I have are new glass that's pretty much interchangeable with the lenses of any other camera manufacturer out there, I'm basically free to change systems at minimal cost whenever something better comes along. If all I had was an average consumer with a dx camera and slow consumer zooms, I'd probably just use my phone unless I needed the telephoto.
 

davidzvi

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Buying new lenses is great, but Nikon had been famous for its backwards compatibility. It wasn't perfect, but at least students and others with less means could pick up decent glass without breaking the bank. New customers buying into the new crop mirrorless are going to be discouraged with their results when they use these consumer zooms.
Yes Nikon has been famous for the fact that the F mount dates back to 1959 while the Canon EF mount was introduced in 1987 and they introduce the EF-S (APS-C) in 2003. But Nikon has also been roundly criticized because the F mount has held them back. While I understand that many may wish for an adapter that would drive non AF-S / AF-P lenses I'm not sure many would actually be happy with the speed or battery drain.

Note: AF-D is actually incorrect, they don't really go together like AF-S or AF-P. Yes I've been know to refer to it as AF-D myself, but since the discussion is getting pretty specific about compatibility I though I would point it out since it can be VERY confusing at times.

AF-S – Auto Focus with Silent Wave Motor
AF-P – Auto Focus with Stepping Motor

In both cases the "S" & "P" refer to the AF motor. The "D" actually denotes that the lens sends camera to subject distance information to the camera. The 80-200's name is actually - Nikon AF Zoom-NIKKOR 80-200mm f/2.8D ED with the "D" after the aperture.

I believe the same can be said about AI / AI-S / AI-P, that the "S" and "P" are not really related to the AI since they are labeled NIKKOR-P and NIKKOR-S.
 

ooheadsoo

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You're right about the "D" designation, but it seems to be the easiest way to refer to the screw drive series.

Screw drive motors definitely feel slower than their modern counterparts, but are you sure battery life would take a significant hit? These lenses were designed for use way before current battery tech.
 

ac12

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I was thinking more in terms of retaining new customers who are exploring outside the realm of phone photography rather than serious photgraphers looking for lighter kit. The casual crowd is not looking for well corrected and sharp lenses. Most just want to control dof so they can make their subjects pop. Unfortunately, you have to work harder to achieve that with slow lenses, and casuals looking to dabble will get discouraged and go back to their phones. Even with low light, it's not clear these slow dx lenses will offer up a significant advantage to the casual photgrapher despite the much larger sensor. Until the third party manufacturers reverse engineer Nikon's new af protocols, DX needs those fast native budget primes it's never had.

True about Nikon abandoning screw drive for their entry level dx cameras. It's one of the reasons I got the d750; because I can't afford all these first party af-s lenses, but af-d lenses are more compact and affordable. It's still a shame that they're trying to kill off their af-d lens line up all over again, and before the d750's successor has even been announced. Nikon legacy lens compatibility was a big factor in keeping me in the system. If all I have are new glass that's pretty much interchangeable with the lenses of any other camera manufacturer out there, I'm basically free to change systems at minimal cost whenever something better comes along. If all I had was an average consumer with a dx camera and slow consumer zooms, I'd probably just use my phone unless I needed the telephoto.
quote
Most just want to control dof so they can make their subjects pop.​
WHO is "most?" I hear and read a LOT on the internet about people being fixated on shallow DoF, but are they really MOST of the poplulation? I say NO. Most of the population do not care about shallow DoF, and don't even understand DoF. It is only a small percentage who are so fixated on shallow DoF portature that they blow it up to be so all important.

OK time for a fact and reality check:

Fast primes for a DX camera.
  • Nikon has the DX 35/1.8, and the DX priced $200 FX 50/1.8. Both are AF-S lenses.
  • Canon has the 50/1.8.
    • Canon however does not have an EF-S or low cost 35mm/1.8 class lens. You have to buy the Yongnuo 35/2.
IMHO, that is probably good enough for MOST people.

If you are talking about primes at all lens ranges, well that is a fatality of the times. Primes have in general been replaced by zooms.
Neither Nikon nor Canon sells a 135/2.8, neither DX nor FX. The 135/2.8 was a staple prime, back in the film days. Today it is gone, and has been replaced by zooms.

As for the slow lenses. Yes they are slow, but the cameras today can go to a much higher ISO level, than people could dream about back then. And that has made up for the smaller max aperture.
My D70 has a max ISO of only 1600. The current D3400/5600 have a max ISO of 25600, and the D7500 goes up to 51200 (not expanded). That is 4 and 5 stops greater sensor sensitivity than my D70. That makes up for a lot of lens speed.
From a $2,800 pro 70-200/2.8 lens down to a $140 consumer 70-300/4.5-5.6 is only TWO stops difference (worst case).

I can and did shoot a f/5.6 lens on the football field at night at ISO 12800.
So lower light is not the problem that it used to be. Just raise the ISO level.

Undestand that Nikon's backwards compatibility is a marketing gimick.

There one F mount, that is true. But that is the mount itself, not the aperture and focus coupling.
However, there are MANY different ways to couple the lens to the camera, and they are NOT all compatible.. And that is where things get complex, to the point that you NEED to use a compatibility chart, when you buy older Nikon lenses for you new Nikon camera. And even new lenses for your older camera.
  • I can put a pre-AI lens on my D70, but I CANNOT do so on my D7200, or I will damage the AI coupling linkage.
  • I can put a DX AF-P lens on my D7200, but I cannot turn off the VR, for use on a tripod.
  • If you have an older dSLR, you cannot use an AF-P lens.
    • I think the AF-P lens is "focus by wire," so you cannot even manually focus the lens, on an incompatible camera.​
  • The D3xxx and D5xxx will not autofocus the mechancal AF series lenses.
  • etc., etc., etc.
Frankly Nikon needed to make a break from the ball and chain of the past. Especially the zoo of different coupling mechanisms that they used.

Canon did a similar break back when they changed from the breech lock FD mount to the bayonet EF mount. And they designed the lens/camera coupling of the EF mount for the future, and it worked.
Canon went directly to an electronic AF, bypassing the mechanical AF that Nikon used before switching to the electronic AF-S.
What Canon did not do was use the many incompatible couplings that Nikon used. So as far as I know, any EF lens with work on any EF mount camera.

Canon has gone to using two different mounts for their mirrorless cameras; the M series APS-C camera and the R series FF camera.
Both M and R cameras can use EF lenses, via an EF to M and EF to R adapter, but I don't know if the M camera can use a R lens.​
I don't know what the mount will be/is on the Nikon mirrorless DX camera; Z or something else? Hopefully the same Z mount.
 

ac12

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You're right about the "D" designation, but it seems to be the easiest way to refer to the screw drive series.

Screw drive motors definitely feel slower than their modern counterparts, but are you sure battery life would take a significant hit? These lenses were designed for use way before current battery tech.
Performance of AF screw drive lenses depends entirely on the camera.
I don't know about your D750, but an AF lens on a F4 was an amazing thing to see, compared to my D70. It was FAST. Without doing an AB comparison, I would say it would rival some of my AF-S lenses in focusing speed.
On a pro camera, the motor has to be FAST and have high torque. The peak current drain on a motor like that would be high.

Here is the other issue. A pro wants a FAST autofocus, not a slow autofocus.
Fast = bigger and more expensive. Slow = smaller and less expensive.
So what do you build?
 

davidzvi

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You're right about the "D" designation, but it seems to be the easiest way to refer to the screw drive series.

Screw drive motors definitely feel slower than their modern counterparts, but are you sure battery life would take a significant hit? These lenses were designed for use way before current battery tech.
Actually there are "D" and non-"D" screw drive versions. The one that comes to mind first is the 180mm f/2.8

1988-1993: Non-D
1993-present: D version
 
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