1. Reminder: Please use our affiliate links to get to your favorite stores for holiday shopping!

Nikon and Canon comments on m4/3

Discussion in 'Other Systems' started by soundimageplus, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    782
    Feb 2, 2010
    Worcestershire
    From Amateur Photographer (UK)
    Nikon speaks out about compact system camera news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums
    Via Mirrorless Rumors
    Mirrorless Rumors | Blog | Nikon says mirrorlress is taking away market from compact cameras, not from DSLR's.

    "The success of compact system camera sales is taking away from the compact camera market, not from digital SLRs, according to Simon Iddon, Product Manager for DX DSLR at Nikon UK, and has not had an impact on the company's DSLR sales.

    In an interview with AP Iddon said that Nikon currently has a complete line-up and does not need to fill any gaps in its product range with a compact system offering. 'We have all points covered' Iddon told AP 'with a complete range of cameras from entry level to professional, and plenty of great compact cameras too.' Iddon says that the compact system camera market will not divert sales from the DSLRs, because 'if you want a DSLR you want what a DSLR stands for' and that isn't a compact system camera.

    James Banfield, also of Nikon UK, commented that some of the companies that have been particularly successful in the compact system market have had to spend a lot of money to achieve that success. 'I think in some cases marketing spend has out-stripped sales revenue,' he remarked.

    These comments come at a time of heightened speculation about Nikon's intensions in the CSC market and the size of sensor the company might use. While Iddon's remarks certainly do not rule Nikon in or out of the compact system camera arena, they might suggest that an announcement is not as imminent as some believe and others would like."


    If I had a sense of skepticism words like:-
    Sour Grapes, Missed the boat, Wishful Thinking, God this sand is blocking up my ears, might spring to mind.

    Following on from the equally insightful comments from Canon.

    Canon doesn’t need compact system camera news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums

    "Canon doesn't need to introduce a mirrorless compact system camera (CSC), according to the head of consumer imaging in Europe, as the company does not have a problem selling its existing compact and DSLR products. In an interview with Amateur Photographer, Rainer Fuehres said that compact system cameras have been introduced by manufacturers that find it difficult to compete in the digital SLR market. Not ruling out the possibility that Canon will enter this area, Rainer stressed that if it did the reason would not be because Canon felt it had to.

    'The idea of the compact system camera is nothing to do with whether the camera has a mirror or not, but about creating a small and more portable system. If Canon does take part I hope we won't introduce just a me-too product, but we'll use the opportunity to do something different.' Rainer said. 'For Canon it would be about connectivity and providing high image quality in a small form'. The manufacturers that have introduced micro Four Thirds and mirrorless systems have been those that have failed to make a success of their mainstream digital SLR offerings, according to Rainer. Indeed, when Samsung first mentioned its then forthcoming NX system to AP in 2008 Samsung Techwin Executive Vice President Byung Woo Lee stated that the move into a new area would come because the company's GX series of DSLRs could not compete with Nikon and Canon's models.

    Canon has consistently refused to comment on its position on the new compact system camera, and when asked whether the company would enter the mirrorless market or concentrate on making its EOS DSLR series smaller Rainer would not say. The two and a half year-old CSC market is growing, with Panasonic leading the way with its Lumix G series cameras. While these smaller camera systems have been popular in Asia, the UK and some other European countries, they have failed to make much impact in the enormous and essential American market. Until Canon, and Nikon, can see that the market is truly global the introduction of a compact mirrorless system will be a risk that these companies perhaps do not have to take."


    Both sets of comments sound about as convincing as IBM did all those years ago. You remember - "Who's going to want a desktop computer - nobody!"
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. GaryAyala

    GaryAyala Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 2, 2011
    SoCal
    Interesting. Seems both Nikon and Canon are basically saying the same thing ... they don't see a real market. What market has been created for CSC has been carved out at very dear cost.

    Canon and Nikon has a huge dSLR market to protect ... every sale of a Canon/Nikon CSC is a potential and real dSLR sale. With the profits in CSC being so minimal, Canon/Nikon will milk the dSLR cow until the flow starts to dwindle.

    Or ... Canon and/or Nikon are both madly working on CSC's and are intending to ambush the market. Canon made an interesting statement that a small camera doesn't have to be mirror-less ... mmmmhhhh

    Good article ... Thanks for sharing,
    Gary

    PS- I am glad you're not a skeptic.
    G
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. LisaO

    LisaO Mu-43 Top Veteran

    798
    Mar 18, 2010
    New York Metro Area
    Lisa
    I disagree about where the M4/3 is taking sales from. I think it is the DSLR, not the compact camera. It's a big up sell to move someone up from p&s to M4/3, it's a usually a small down sell from DSLR to M4/3.

    It always seems to me Nikon and Canon have too many compacts and are updating them about every 6 months while camera phones are really cutting into the p&s world. I think they know they have to come up with some answer to M4/3 but are not ready to show their cards as yet.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Hikari

    Hikari Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 26, 2010
    All of these companies do lots of sales data research. It conclusion is hardly shocking (and why would they lie?). I am sure m4/3 has made a bigger dent in compact sales than DSLR sales, especially since a lot of marketing has been pitched to the compact crowd. You cannot use the forum population as an indicator of the consumer population at large.
     
  5. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    782
    Feb 2, 2010
    Worcestershire
    Agreed. I always thought that neither would be desperate to join in, as CSC sales would hit both of them in terms of both their compact cameras and DSLR's. However from what they say, it does strike me that they may both be seriously mis-reading who is actually buying CSC's. The Nikon comment "if you want a DSLR you want what a DSLR stands for' and that isn't a compact system camera." strikes me as either naive or they actually have no idea whats going on in the real world.

    I read articles all the time, in the professional and serious enthusiast photo press here in the UK, (admittedly keener on mirrorless than other areas of the world) about people adding CSC's to their gear or indeed swapping it out.
    One example, amongst many I might add and far from untypical, was a Professional Photographer Magazine article about a long time DSLR wielding pro who tried out a GH2 and was mightily impressed. As he indicated, not quite fast enough or robust enough to replace his existing gear, but getting there.

    We all see pieces on the internet to back this up. A DSLR isn't the only kind of camera that does the job. Sony have already decided to remove the moving mirror from all their future cameras, and they aren't exactly coming up with CSC's because they can't compete with the big boys. They are after Nikon and Canons share of everything.

    What Nikon and Canon also don't seem to realise is that Sony, Panasonic and Samsung are huge companies with huge resources. Sony and Samsung already price very aggressively.

    The idea that these established companies have some kind of crystal ball to anticipate future trends has been proved to be wrong time and time again. Who would have thought Apple could rise from the near-bankrupcy of the 1990's to become, apparently, the second wealthiest company in the world. (After Exxon-Mobil) All because of a little plastic box that plays music. Who would have thought that a small family company making running shoes for athletes would end up providing footwear for the world.

    I'm not bothered particularly about Canon, but I have a history with Nikon, and they have been THE company for much of my working photographic life. However at this moment the only Nikon product I own is a film scanner. I'd love to see them come up with something exciting and innovative. If Fuji can do it, why can't Nikon?

    However my suspicion is that their heart really isn't in. They are so locked into the DSLR and their Coolpixes, which while never getting a decent review, sell really well, that another system is too much of a risk. Microsoft et al thought Apple was out for the count. How wrong were they?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Hikari

    Hikari Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 26, 2010
    Source: 'Big two' continue to dominate Japan: Digital Photography Review

    I don't think you realize how dominant Canon and Nikon are in the DSLR market. Sony is going to have to diversify to survive.

    Can you please cite the source where Sony is going stop DSLR (mirror camera) development?
     
  7. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    782
    Feb 2, 2010
    Worcestershire
    Well if companies got things right all the time, then none of them would ever go broke, would they! How did Nikon manage to loose their dominant position in the camera market to Canon? Canon were an also-ran when I started in photography. Nikon and Pentax were the big boys. So what happened? Canon started making gear people wanted at a good price and Nikon stopped doing that. Where does that put their sales data research?

    Stuff comes out of nowhere. iPods, Trainers, Mountain bikes. Who would have predicted those? It can only take one product to change everything. Also don't underestimate the "grass roots", we prove again and again that we choose products that nobody would have anticipated we would.

    And don't underestimate forums either. You can be sure the manufacturers don't.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. John M Flores

    John M Flores Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 7, 2011
    Somerville, NJ
    Not surprising really. As much as we love this little cameras, and how much "ink" they receive in the media and blogosphere, they haven't put a dent in Canon and Nikon's juggernauts. They are both wildly successful with their current product lineup, making profits hand over fist. They've got huge advantages in branding, marketing, and distribution. So why change?

    I would imagine that there is some debate within their corporate offices about the need to move into CSCs. There are projections and spreadsheets and presentations about how the market is evolving. They've probably got a detailed plan for how they would go about introducing their own CSCs into the market, and a skunkworks team building up institutional knowledge.

    This is classic market dynamics and will make for a great b-school case study some day.
     
  9. nokiamia

    nokiamia Mu-43 Regular

    102
    May 20, 2010
    Malaysia
    Canon / Nikon definitely lost out 1 unit of sale when I was looking for a DSLR-like quality camera in the compact form-factor, to replace my aging DSLR. Since then, I've became a huge Olympus M4/3 fan.

    A friend moving up from P/S ditch the idea of carrying bulky DSLR for an EPL2. That's 2 units of sale lost for Nikon / Canon. I can go on with just the small circle of my friends...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    782
    Feb 2, 2010
    Worcestershire
    Thats just the DSLR market. DSLR's are only a part of the entire camera market. Compact cameras sell a lot more than DSLR's.

    Sony IS diversifying. DSLR, NEX, compacts, video.

    Sony announced a while ago all future cameras would have a fixed mirror. Like the A55.
    All future Sony Alpha models to have translucent mirror | Photo Rumors
     
  11. Hikari

    Hikari Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 26, 2010
    Just because you buy a product does not mean you are supporting a whole industry. Sales data is always a snapshot in time and always a picture of past action. But trends are there. And the analysis of this data gets better with time. It certainly can be wrong, but I will take their assessment of the market over a random post in a forum. Forum opinions about the camera industry and its direction have a pretty bad track record.
     
  12. jcdoss

    jcdoss Mu-43 Regular

    52
    Mar 10, 2011
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    Ditto here. I upgraded my D200 with an E-PL2. I thought long and hard about a D7k, but I really wanted a carry-all-the-time camera. I figured a D7k would get neglected as much as the D200 after the newness wore off, so I opted for the smaller package.

    I still need a pancake prime or two before the E-PL2 will truly be a carry-all-the-time camera. Maybe the Panny 20 and the new wide Oly, assuming the soon-to-be-announced lens is <14mm, would do the trick.

    I miss some of the DSLR-like controls on the new camera. Put control wheels on the front and back of the next model, and I'll be set!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Narnian

    Narnian Nobody in particular ...

    Aug 6, 2010
    Midlothian, VA
    Richard Elliott
    Our buggy whips are selling just fine ...

    I was going to buy a DSLR until I actually saw a m43 camera. So I can document yet another DSLR that was not sold.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Hikari

    Hikari Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 26, 2010
    So they are still producing DSLRs with mirrors. They still make other types of cameras. And the dominance of Nikon and Canon in the DSLR market is strong. So nothing is changing.
     
  15. Linh

    Linh Mu-43 All-Pro

    Apr 14, 2009
    Maryland, US
    I'm torn. Not entering the field means less competition. But at the same time, it gives panasonic and olympus a chance to really up their game to challenge the notion they aren't scaring the casual DSLR sales... without getting blown out purely on name.

    what I really want to see is for sigma to enter m43. seems like it'd be ideal to ramp up m43 competition (talking bodies, not just lenses...)
     
  16. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    782
    Feb 2, 2010
    Worcestershire
    Yes. What I wrote was:-
    "Sony have already decided to remove the moving mirror from all their future cameras,"
    Note the word moving.
     
  17. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus Mu-43 Top Veteran

    782
    Feb 2, 2010
    Worcestershire
    I don't understand the first bit.

    I would agree with you about not taking any notice of a random post. But I'm not the only one saying similar things. Read Thom Hogan, read Michael Reichmann at Luminous Landscape. Both have been writing about the photography industry for a lot longer than me. Read the photographic magazines, both print and online, they carry the same discussions.

    Going back to the original article.

    "The success of compact system camera sales is taking away from the compact camera market, not from digital SLRs, according to Simon Iddon, Product Manager for DX DSLR at Nikon UK, and has not had an impact on the company's DSLR sales.

    In an interview with AP Iddon said that Nikon currently has a complete line-up and does not need to fill any gaps in its product range with a compact system offering. 'We have all points covered' Iddon told AP 'with a complete range of cameras from entry level to professional, and plenty of great compact cameras too.' Iddon says that the compact system camera market will not divert sales from the DSLRs, because 'if you want a DSLR you want what a DSLR stands for' and that isn't a compact system camera.

    James Banfield, also of Nikon UK, commented that some of the companies that have been particularly successful in the compact system market have had to spend a lot of money to achieve that success. 'I think in some cases marketing spend has out-stripped sales revenue,' he remarked."


    You're perfectly happy with all that? You don't think there might be just the slightest, ever so small, almost infinitesimal bit of vested interest, company self-promotion, PR and put down the competition tactics in what they say?
     
  18. Conrad

    Conrad Mu-43 Veteran

    It already is a great case study.

    Imagine yourself to be a marketing manager at XXXon and you have to set up a strategy for preserving or enlarging your market share. So you sit down, look at all the data at your disposal: you analyze the market, segment the market, compare your product line-up to the market(-segment) demands, and define new products plus a roadmap of products per segment that you want to serve. The current conclusion for both companies will inevitably be: our current line-up is competitive, complete, and successful. There is this new camera type: CSC, but their value proposition is not something we cannot counter: size and video. And at some point, the new entrant's management will become sane and pull the plug of what must be a money pit, just like they did with 4/3's.
    And the bottom line: it would be a near career limiting move to propose a new system with only a long term return on investment, no justifiable increase of market share, while at the same time cannibalizing the engineering resources needed to keep a competitive edge towards YYYon in the high-end segment. And we cannot loose face in that segment, because it is our credibility for all the other ones.

    Now turn to be a Panasonic marketing manager. How do you attack the status quo in a market consisting of basically two main segments: compact and SLR. You do have earned a quite respectable position in the compact market in a relatively short time, but your latest attack on the SLR market was, well, less successful. The answer: create a system positioned exactly in the middle. You start by serving the top part of the compact segment (GF1) together with the low-end part of the SLR segment (G1). The value proposition: size versus quality. Then enlarge the market (not necessarily market share) by focussing on video (GH1). Follow that track for 1 to 2 years (GF2,G2,GH2), while building (and that is the crucial step) the technology needed for features that will make SLR's look like low-tech. Your competitors will not know what hit them...

    The key is and will be technology. The platform that can deliver today what is needed will sell today, but the one that can be extended to nearly unthinkable possibilities will sell in the future. I see no signs of wild innovation in any of the SLR companies. But I can think of very fast paced innovation enabled by just increasing the readout rate of a live view system. The game will change and Panasonic executes reasonably well, with a balanced line-up of bodies, features, and good quality lenses.

    Canon and Nikon will hold eachother strangled because the one that goes first will loose in their current main segment to the other, so they both won't move. I know it sounds strange but Nikon and Canon simply cannot afford the investment needed to develop this new platform type. Their development capacity is limited to a percentage of their annual turnover (my guesstimate: 8%). Any significant new development will eat up capacity that is needed to defend their current position. Unless they have a very bold management with a real long term vision on technology that is willing to sacrifice a position that feels secure, they will NOT act. Both interviews quoted by David show exactly this attitude.

    Of course these ramblings are my personal and probably biased opinion, add grains of salt as you like :wink:.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  19. ~tc~

    ~tc~ Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oct 22, 2010
    Houston, TX
    This is where I don't see it.

    Profit in CSC HAS to be MUCH higher than entry-level DSLR. By removing the mirror and all the moving parts, you have to be cutting the cost DRAMATICALLY, and yet CSC sells for about the same. With a DSLR, you are making a mechanical device with a computer back end. With a CSC, you are essentially building a computer, and Moore's Law will be in effect.

    Yes, you have to spend a bunch of money to develop lenses, but, let's face it - m43 lenses aren't cheap, they're getting that money back in a hurry.

    And, also, yes - Panasonic and Olympus have to spend a bunch more on marketing that Canikon - they always have, and probably always will. I don't see how these cost levels carry over to the "big two".
     
  20. kytra

    kytra Mu-43 Regular

    126
    Feb 28, 2011
    This is an exciting debate. IMO the m4/3 system has finally matured and, as said before, the fact that CSJ, Schneider, Sigma enter the m4/3 group is the final sign that the new system is a recognized player.

    I was a little skeptical a few years ago about the 2x crop sensors (thus purchased Pentax and Nikon APS-C) but now I am completely won over by the m4/3.

    I think the classic OVF DSLR market will shrink to cater mostly to professionals and the entry level/enthusiast segment will be eaten by m4/3 and Sony NEX in a few years. Canikon will be forced to put a MILC offer on the table, and I think that will happen in 2011 or 2012. The dilemma is backward compatibility with the stable of lenses or even keeping the F and EOS mounts or to go for another mount, either m4/3 or a new one with partial in-house compatibility (for example a microF or micro EOS mount)