Next gen Lumix GH series cameras unveiling May 25. Link in post

Generationfourth

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Ah, but they did go over the GH5 and G9 Firmware and discussed the GH6 a bit. And I didn't really expect they would, but I was satisfied to know I'm not the only one.
Yeah I wasn't trying to be overly negative, and overall I think the question is a good one to pose. Heck I'd probably ask knowing I wouldn't get an answer. The more people asking lets Panasonic know there is a demand...
 

Generationfourth

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I think you are understanding why I stopped posting on DPR. It's the endless repetition of that sort of garbage by people who couldn't run a chook raffle, let alone any kind of business ...
I've been on many forums since the start of the internet, and DPR (and for some reason specifically the M43 forum) takes the cake in terms of hostility and vitriol.
 

BDR-529

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Ok , so here's the question: How would they feature differentiate this cheaper version of a GH6 from the $2500 version but keep the same sensor?

- cheaper looking materials on the body
- gh5 II Venus processor (=S1H) instead of the latest one GH6 will have
- "only' GH5 II video specs which are already pretty high end.
- VLog sold sepately as a $100 SW upgrade
- Some pro video resolutions sold separately as $XX SW upgrades.

Voila! You have a $1900€ model which will not cannibalize GH6 sales and can still be manufactured on the same production line for maximum economies of scale.

Have you ever seen how car factories work? In the same production line there is a happy mix of 20 000€ and 80 000€ models which are essentially the same car and cost almost the same to manufacture. Bells and whistles have nearly zero cost to the factory but can easily double the sales price.

Electronics industry is even worse because it's usually cheaper to manufacture high volumes of one product and just disable features in the FW if you need products for several price categories. All you need is cheaper looking plastics and less tactile buttons for 2-3 lesser product variants
 
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BDR-529

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This just in: Sony just released a THIRD new m4/3 sensor which nobody is using in camera bodies.

This time it's a 21MP sensor called IMX472 so it can't be the one in GH6 but according to datasheet it's designed to be used in a digital camera... OMDS?

https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/e/products/IS/camera/product.html

Sony already has a global shutter 19MP and 41MP "8k" MFT sensors in mass production but neither Panny, nor OMDS ever used those for whatever reason.

Forthcomig GH6 will also have the fourth new MFT sensor but we don't know yet where it will come from
 

BDR-529

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The plot thickens!

The culprit of this story should be quite easy to guess.

IMX472 is NOT a multi-aspect sensor so it's designed for a customer who does not want to have anything to do with this "video"-nonsense that is just a fad and will die out in a matter of weeks.

Instead it's a stacked, fairly low resolution BSI sensor and ticks all the right boxes for improved low light performance.

Instead of video this datasheet actually speaks about 120frames/s in still picture mode. When was the last time you saw that word in a sensor datasheet?

Now, who could it possibly be? 😉
 
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Does taking photos at 120fps for a really long time make me a content creator? ;)



You seem extremely knowledgeable in the technical aspects of this, so I'll ask you: is there any technical reason why the new 24mp filter for the GH6 would not be capable of PDAF? I know it's not realistic to assume, or I guess even hope, that Panasonic starts using what EVERY OTHER manufacturer uses, but it's at least technically possible?
 

Danny_SWE

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The culprit of this story should be quite easy to guess.

IMX472 is NOT a multi-aspect sensor so it's designed for a customer who does not want to have anything to do with this "video"-nonsense that is just a fad and will die out in a matter of weeks.

Instead it's a stacked, fairly low resolution BSI sensor and ticks all the right boxes for improved low light performance.

Instead of video this datasheet actually speaks about 120frames/s in still picture mode. When was the last time you saw that word in a sensor datasheet?

Now, who could it possibly be? 😉
Sony has announced a new M4/3-sensor today!! Great news
https://www.43rumors.com/sony-annou...-sensor-is-this-the-new-panasonic-gh6-sensor/

Hope a G10 will come with this in, would be great!
 

BDR-529

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is there any technical reason why the new 24mp filter for the GH6 would not be capable of PDAF?
You need dedicated PDAF photosites on the sensor for that.

CDAF is analyzing the image which sensor produces in real time and doesn't require any support from the sensor (or lens) whatsoever to get focus absolutely spot on. Thanks to DFD panny has been able to use any sensor available "as is" without customization.

Olympus has a custom version of IMX272 sensor which Panny uses in G9 and GH5 and the only difference is 128 Olympus-designed cross-type PDAF cells on the sensor.

As a matter of fact, OMDS couldn't use this new IMX472 because it doesn't have PDAF-cells but they will need a custom version (IMX470 or so) whic supports their AF system
 
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Stanga

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If memory serves me right, didn't the Panasonic DMC-L10 support contrast detect and PDAF? But only two lenses supported the contrast detect, namely a 14-50mm and a 14-150mm.
 
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@itisasitis Henrik, PDAF is more than just a compatible sensor.

Both lenses and camera internals all have to be designed and built to support PDAF.
Thanks. That's also something I've been thinking about - what happens to lens compatibility if they would add PDAF ("cross-type"/"hybrid")? Are lenses made purely for CDAF unable to utilize PDAF?
 

John King

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Thanks. That's also something I've been thinking about - what happens to lens compatibility if they would add PDAF ("cross-type"/"hybrid")? Are lenses made purely for CDAF unable to utilize PDAF?
Olympus lenses use a number of permutations and combinations of CDAF and PDAF, depending on the focus settings.

All mFTs cameras 'below' the E-M1 series use CDAF only. All FTs bodies and lenses use only PDAF.
 

swifty

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You can add OSPDAF to virtually any sensor as long as you can address those cluster of pixels, if we’re talking about the Sony/Nikon/Aptina’s way of doing it. It’s just an additional half-masking layer over a cluster of pixels done either in the CFA or microlens layer (I forget which) although they can do it on the pixel structure too.

If you’re talking about Canon’s way of doing it (Canon’s dual pixel AF), it is also a form of OSPDAF except this is definitely pixel structure level as they have two rectangular pixel structures forming a single dual-pixel pixel under the same microlens. In Canon’s case every single dual-pixel pixel can be used for AF but for practical and bandwidth reasons, they don’t use every pixel but group clusters of pixels to form the AF points you can select.

I’ve seen numerous quad-pixel PDAF patents from virtually all the companies. So there are many ways of doing OSPDAF.
 

S-Osolin

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You need dedicated PDAF photosites on the sensor for that.

CDAF is analyzing the image which sensor produces in real time and doesn't require any support from the sensor (or lens) whatsoever to get focus absolutely spot on. Thanks to DFD panny has been able to use any sensor available "as is" without customization.

Olympus has a custom version of IMX272 sensor which Panny uses in G9 and GH5 and the only difference is 128 Olympus-designed cross-type PDAF cells on the sensor.

As a matter of fact, OMDS couldn't use this new IMX472 because it doesn't have PDAF-cells but they will need a custom version (IMX470 or so) whic supports their AF system

Pdaf is highly overvalued. I've shot with the latest xt-4 for few months now, and it's s-af performs worse than my pdaf'less om-d 10 mk3. For some reason it hunts like crazy when trying to focus on the clouds, even causing few rare missed focus shots, something that almost never happens on mk3. I'd even say that eye tracking on Olympus is giving better results as well, though I have not tested that out thoroughly. Now, if I move it to tracking af, it immediately becomes a lot better for Fuji, the one on mk3 is barely functional.
Point is that I've completely stopped looking at auto focus performance in cameras. I rarely use continuous auto focus, and simply rely on s-af. As for videos, I'm firmly grounded to manual focus there.
 

RAH

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Focusing on clouds - wouldn't that almost always be at infinity (unless you're in an airplane or something)? Maybe there's some odd deficiency in Fuji for achieving infinity focus? Seems odd to me.
 
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Pdaf is highly overvalued. I've shot with the latest xt-4 for few months now, and it's s-af performs worse than my pdaf'less om-d 10 mk3. For some reason it hunts like crazy when trying to focus on the clouds, even causing few rare missed focus shots, something that almost never happens on mk3. I'd even say that eye tracking on Olympus is giving better results as well, though I have not tested that out thoroughly. Now, if I move it to tracking af, it immediately becomes a lot better for Fuji, the one on mk3 is barely functional.
Point is that I've completely stopped looking at auto focus performance in cameras. I rarely use continuous auto focus, and simply rely on s-af. As for videos, I'm firmly grounded to manual focus there.
"Pdaf is highly overvalued."
"Now, if I move it to tracking af, it immediately becomes a lot better for Fuji"

At least I was asking questions related to AF-C functionality.
 

S-Osolin

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Focusing on clouds - wouldn't that almost always be at infinity (unless you're in an airplane or something)? Maybe there's some odd deficiency in Fuji for achieving infinity focus? Seems odd to me.
Most lenses are designed to focus slightly past infinity. Easier for quality control, as an added bonus it comes handy when used with extension tubes.
 

Darmok N Jalad

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When I read Fuji reviews, the focus problems seem to be pointed at the lenses. Reviewers say that each lens model can perform quite differently, and some don’t even support tracking. The best I can gather, the bodies are good, but lenses could be better. Some of this is attributed to the closed system and not having a lot of options outside of Fuji lenses.
 
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