New Leica T system mirrorless camera...

BigOwl

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OK, here's what I don't understand. All the reports of this new Leica say that some lenses will be coming from Japan and then stress "but they won't be from Panasonic", like everyone should be happy to hear that. Why is that? Panasonic lenses are respectable designs and quality of manufacturing. Everyone knows there has been collaboration between Panasonic and Leica on new lenses, with some of them carrying the Leica brand getting very good reports in quality tests and user feedback. Seems to me Leica could do a lot worse than Panasonic for a Japanese partner for this new Leica T. So why make a strong point that it will not be Panasonic?
 

GFFPhoto

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OK, here's what I don't understand. All the reports of this new Leica say that some lenses will be coming from Japan and then stress "but they won't be from Panasonic", like everyone should be happy to hear that. Why is that? Panasonic lenses are respectable designs and quality of manufacturing. Everyone knows there has been collaboration between Panasonic and Leica on new lenses, with some of them carrying the Leica brand getting very good reports in quality tests and user feedback. Seems to me Leica could do a lot worse than Panasonic for a Japanese partner for this new Leica T. So why make a strong point that it will not be Panasonic?
I think Leica is jugs trying to distance themselves from the re-branded Panasonic part of their lineup. In my view, it's less a knock an Panasonic, and more a commentary on Leica selling the name alone. I think they are trying to say "it's a real Leica", not just another attempt to cash in on the name (especially since the net is full of people saying that is exactly what they are doing). And for what it's worth Panasonic has done really well with lens design, especially since they compete head to head against Olympus, who are one of the legendary optics companies, and they come out on top as often as not.
 

dhazeghi

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OK, here's what I don't understand. All the reports of this new Leica say that some lenses will be coming from Japan and then stress "but they won't be from Panasonic", like everyone should be happy to hear that. Why is that? Panasonic lenses are respectable designs and quality of manufacturing. Everyone knows there has been collaboration between Panasonic and Leica on new lenses, with some of them carrying the Leica brand getting very good reports in quality tests and user feedback. Seems to me Leica could do a lot worse than Panasonic for a Japanese partner for this new Leica T. So why make a strong point that it will not be Panasonic?
Because it brings up uncomfortable questions, such as why a Panasonic Leica 15/1.7 is $600 whereas a Leica 23/2 is $2000. Bottom line, they don't want people paying Leica prices for these lenses, which means avoiding acknowledging that these are mass-produced by some Japanese company, not hand built in a German factory.
 

usayit

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Because it brings up uncomfortable questions, such as why a Panasonic Leica 15/1.7 is $600 whereas a Leica 23/2 is $2000. Bottom line, they don't want people paying Leica prices for these lenses, which means avoiding acknowledging that these are mass-produced by some Japanese company, not hand built in a German factory.
Perhaps the reason is more obvious.

Panasonic didn't make it.

Large optical manufactures such as Hoya and Cosina who are responsible for many of the optical elements for some of the biggest names in photography certainly don't make it known either. I would bet its a mutual and standard agreement no different from other big names. My bet is Cosina. Some of the highest quality optics have come out of them... but most would never known it.


Leica certainly doesn't have a history of going out of their way to hide manufacturers. They may not volunteer the information but the threads over on Leica boards have certainly been able to figure it out.

Case in point. the M240. Announced Sept 17th, 2012

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-M-full-frame-24MP-CMOS-rangefinder-with-focus-peaking-live-view-and-1080p-movies

Same time as this announcement for their sensor manufacturer

http://www.cmosis.com/news/press_releases/new_leica_m_uses_cmosis_24_mp_cmos_image_sensor


They already mentioned that a Japanese manufacturer already is involved. That's enough already to bring up the same "uncomfortable" questions.... but I bet Leica simply doesn't see those questions as a concern. Why? i'm not sure. But someone on another forum mentioned that they don't believe the T system is targeted towards the traditional M shooter crowd. THe same crowd that expressed disappointment when Leica moved M-mount lens manufacturing from Wetzler (near Solms) Germany to Midland, Canada back in the 70s. I'm certainly an M shooter and the T system doesn't really ring with me.



Honestly, all this conjecture over the "secrets" of this T system is being analyzed to the n degree looking for a more "sinister" reason. I think the simple answer is that there are a set of NDAs involved and neither side wants to violate them.
 

rklepper

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How many of you finding fault with these system would actually buy one? I find absolutely no fault with the Leica systems and mostly because I could never afford one.
 

BobbyTan

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How many of you finding fault with these system would actually buy one? I find absolutely no fault with the Leica systems and mostly because I could never afford one.
I see lots of faults with the Leica T and it's not because I could not afford one. I may buy a FF Sony and maybe also consider using Leica lenses on it but I would not consider a Leica T.
 

Jonathan F/2

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Here's another possibility, maybe it's Panasonic who doesn't want the cat out of the bag that they're the ones making the Leica T lenses especially since they're actively involved with the M43 system. :rolleyes: :biggrin: Like many who have pointed it out here on this thread, Panasonic has the established relationship, they've worked with Leica optic engineers and they have the mass production facilities to produce lenses to Leica specs. Makes more sense to me than going to Hoya/Cosina.

Perhaps the reason is more obvious.

Panasonic didn't make it.

Large optical manufactures such as Hoya and Cosina who are responsible for many of the optical elements for some of the biggest names in photography certainly don't make it known either. I would bet its a mutual and standard agreement no different from other big names. My bet is Cosina. Some of the highest quality optics have come out of them... but most would never known it.


Leica certainly doesn't have a history of going out of their way to hide manufacturers. They may not volunteer the information but the threads over on Leica boards have certainly been able to figure it out.

Case in point. the M240. Announced Sept 17th, 2012

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-M-full-frame-24MP-CMOS-rangefinder-with-focus-peaking-live-view-and-1080p-movies

Same time as this announcement for their sensor manufacturer

http://www.cmosis.com/news/press_releases/new_leica_m_uses_cmosis_24_mp_cmos_image_sensor


They already mentioned that a Japanese manufacturer already is involved. That's enough already to bring up the same "uncomfortable" questions.... but I bet Leica simply doesn't see those questions as a concern. Why? i'm not sure. But someone on another forum mentioned that they don't believe the T system is targeted towards the traditional M shooter crowd. THe same crowd that expressed disappointment when Leica moved M-mount lens manufacturing from Wetzler (near Solms) Germany to Midland, Canada back in the 70s. I'm certainly an M shooter and the T system doesn't really ring with me.



Honestly, all this conjecture over the "secrets" of this T system is being analyzed to the n degree looking for a more "sinister" reason. I think the simple answer is that there are a set of NDAs involved and neither side wants to violate them.
 

fortwodriver

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They already mentioned that a Japanese manufacturer already is involved. That's enough already to bring up the same "uncomfortable" questions.... but I bet Leica simply doesn't see those questions as a concern. Why? i'm not sure. But someone on another forum mentioned that they don't believe the T system is targeted towards the traditional M shooter crowd. THe same crowd that expressed disappointment when Leica moved M-mount lens manufacturing from Wetzler (near Solms) Germany to Midland, Canada back in the 70s. I'm certainly an M shooter and the T system doesn't really ring with me.



Honestly, all this conjecture over the "secrets" of this T system is being analyzed to the n degree looking for a more "sinister" reason. I think the simple answer is that there are a set of NDAs involved and neither side wants to violate them.
I thought Leica users were THRILLED that M cameras moved to Midland... It was the German engineers at Midland who convinced Wetzlar NOT to discontinue the M... Leica was ready to give up the M and go dedicated into SLR land. That aside, Leica-Midland is basically Raytheon and makes/made a lot of military optics. I wish my M4 was one of those rare "made in Canada" versions...

But I digress. Leica isn't stupid...They're not going to dwell on the fact that those lenses aren't made by german craftsmen. I bet those lenses are being made by Konica-Minolta... Kauffman is a business man. He happens to like taking pictures. This, to me, looks like a purely "business decision" camera system.
 

usayit

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Here's another possibility, maybe it's Panasonic who doesn't want the cat out of the bag that they're the ones making the Leica T lenses especially since they're actively involved with the M43 system. :rolleyes: :biggrin: Like many who have pointed it out here on this thread, Panasonic has the established relationship, they've worked with Leica optic engineers and they have the mass production facilities to produce lenses to Leica specs. Makes more sense to me than going to Hoya/Cosina.
On one hand, we have Stephan Daniel, directory of product management at Leica, and on the other we have your distrust for Leica. (Why?) Cosina is a much bigger name in optics than Panasonic. I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic optical elements are sourced from Cosina as well. Honestly... it really doesn't matter. Either way, the more I think about it the more I don't think it will sell in huge numbers.

The sky is blue. No doubt you will argue its green.

Its not a conspiracy.. its more likely the result of something very simple... NDAs between involved parties. Leica has already mentioned that Japanese manufacturers were brought into the picture in order to keep the price point they targeted. Nothing wrong with that.
 

usayit

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I thought Leica users were THRILLED that M cameras moved to Midland... It was the German engineers at Midland who convinced Wetzlar NOT to discontinue the M... Leica was ready to give up the M and go dedicated into SLR land. That aside, Leica-Midland is basically Raytheon and makes/made a lot of military optics. I wish my M4 was one of those rare "made in Canada" versions....
Yes and no.

You are absolutely correct that Leica M users were thrilled that the M cameras were moved to Midland... because the alternative was to discontinue the system all together. Leica users however were still disappointed (for many reasons both justified and un-justified as well as imaginary) and till this day, the German built lenses command a higher price in the used market. But honestly this is so moot these days.
 

Jonathan F/2

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I'm not disputing Cosina is involved, but your opinion is just speculation as much as mine. Panasonic's Yamagata factory seems more than capable of mass producing high quality lenses if need be.

Old press release detailing Panasonic Yamagata lens factory process and their Leica level QC:
http://ajaxnetphoto.blogspot.com/2006/10/modernology-of-manufacturing.html

Also Cosina isn't as great as you make them out to be, they've made lots of mass produced junkers for other camera manufacturers.

On one hand, we have Stephan Daniel, directory of product management at Leica, and on the other we have your distrust for Leica. (Why?) Cosina is a much bigger name in optics than Panasonic. I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic optical elements are sourced from Cosina as well.

The sky is blue. No doubt you will argue its green.

Its not a conspiracy.. its more likely the result of something very simple... NDAs between involved parties. Leica has already mentioned that Japanese manufacturers were brought into the picture in order to keep the price point they targeted. Nothing wrong with that.
 

usayit

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I'm not disputing Cosina is involved, but your opinion is just speculation as much as mine.
Um... Except that Stephan Daniel's statement is not speculation.

If you actually read my posts (here and in the other thread), I never claimed that what I was saying was absolute fact... I simply pointed out that there are other possibilities far more logical than the contrived conspiracy theories you insist exists between Panasonic and Leica.

Let me quote myself from this thread
Its not a conspiracy.. its more likely the result of something very simple... NDAs between involved parties.
 

picturewow

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My initial impression is that I Iike the clean design. I think it is time for a camera to have a good touchscreen interface.
 

usayit

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...or a Samsung NX300.
I also immediately thought of Samsung. At least in a store setting, the NX300 build feels great (not sure about samsung lenses). I like the silver with dark brown leather. Very sharp and android too.

Toyed with the idea of hanging up the MFT system and going with the Samsung NX. I've become a big fan of their products.
 
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I also immediately thought of Samsung. At least in a store setting, the NX300 build feels great (not sure about samsung lenses). I like the silver with dark brown leather. Very sharp and android too.

Toyed with the idea of hanging up the MFT system and going with the Samsung NX. I've become a big fan of their products.
I'm not really considering moving from Micro 4/3 to Samsung NX. When it comes to the system as a whole and particularly the higher end bodies Micro 4/3 still comes out on top, but the NX300 with a few prime lenses (20mm, 30mm, and 45mm in my case) is a compact, low cost package with a quality feeling body, beautiful sensor, tiny (albeit plasticky) lenses with sharp optics and nice character. I only realised the other day that I own a Samsung camera, smartphone, fridge, and microwave :tongue:
 

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