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New EM5II electronic shutter 1/16000, 10 or 12 bits RAW?

Discussion in 'Olympus Cameras' started by Halaking, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
  2. KBeezie

    KBeezie Mu-43 Top Veteran

    694
    Sep 15, 2012
    Grand Rapids, Mi
    Karl Blessing
    My E-M5 Mk1 is 12-bit, my E-P3 is 12-bit, I can't imagine the E-M5 Mk2 being less than 12-bit. (even my old Pentax K10D DSLR is 12-bit... so I never thought bout getting a new camera and expecting less than that for Raw).
     
  3. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
    Electronic shutter has different read out time, it happened to many Panasonic's camera, example GX7 has slower 1/15s read out time within 1/8000s electronic shutter, so it still output at 12bits RAW, the GM1/5 have 1/25s read out time, but 1/16000s electronic shutter, that cause lower 10bits output.

    I'm wondering the new EM5II has 1/16000s electronic shutter, what's the output from Olympus with 1/16000s electronic shutter.
     
  4. jyc860923

    jyc860923 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 28, 2012
    Shenyang, China
    贾一川
    after reading some reviews focused on the new hi-res mode, the images seem to come with better colour in that mode because it does finer sampling. It has to be using electronic shutter in that mode so I don't think the electronic shutter will negatively influence the colour depth.

    And by the way, what's Nikon 1's readout speed? It seems very capable of capturing moving subjects.
     
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  5. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
    I thought about it, since the new high res mode as new selling points using electronic shutter, maybe it's using slower readout speed.

    I don't know about Nikon 1, I got all these information from here, this forum.:rolleyes:
     
  6. eteless

    eteless Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 20, 2014
    1/60th for full sensor readout.
     
  7. T N Args

    T N Args Agent Photocateur

    Dec 3, 2013
    Adelaide, Australia
    call me Arg
    Even if it didn't achieve the 12 bits, by the time you add the 3 channels on one pixel, does that reinstate some depth?
     
  8. jyc860923

    jyc860923 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 28, 2012
    Shenyang, China
    贾一川
    No, I think it works in 12 bit, but what down scaling doesn't give you, is extra DR, whether 10 bit is enough is another thing though.

    EDIT: sorry I got you wrong, now I get your point, and I'd say yes, it's not DR you were referring to.
     
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  9. jyc860923

    jyc860923 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Feb 28, 2012
    Shenyang, China
    贾一川
    thanks and glad to know. I think that's much much better than 1/15 or 1/25, but still can't compete the mechanical shutter.
     
  10. eteless

    eteless Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jun 20, 2014
    It has an increased speed as it reads the sensor line by line, the aspect ratio means it's wider giving a slight advantage. Most of the sensors in the one's are pretty low MP also to help with it.

    The sensor is basically built towards this goal, it's a small sensor so even if yields are low it doesn't matter and they can use more 'risky' techniques to achieve the end goal - with FF if too many wafers are dead it just isn't cost effective.
     
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  11. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    No. They have nothing to do with each other. More bits giver greater granularity, not a greater range of data.
     
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  12. Klorenzo

    Klorenzo Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 10, 2014
    Lorenzo
    I think you are right in this case, but it actually depends on how the data is encoded. You are correct though that 6 bits can represent the same range as 24 with less resolution.
    Just to make it clear: I can use one bit to represent values from 0 to 1000 like this:
    0 = 0
    1 = 1000

    and again two bits for the same range (non linear):

    00 = 0
    01 = 300
    10 = 800
    11 = 1000

    Usually the encodings are not linear and they give more resolution to different parts of the range, like less bits for the shadows and more for the the highlights (this is not an actual split at the bit level but in how the bits are interpreted as a whole).

    Then there is the assumption that if the sensor chip outputs and processes at 12 bit then the sensor can physically record so much analog information that it is worth to be encoded with 12bits. In the lab or in the real world, at which ISO? And these are the rgb photosites values, then there is the demosaicing that just guesses actual colors out of the grid patterns.

    The experiment about noise in the mechanical vs electronic shutter is a wild guess IMO: maybe the difference is due to the different type of processing that has to be done in the two different cases. In the first one you close the shutter, "zero" the sensor, open and take the reading. With e-shutter the reading is not "calibrated" in the same way so there are a lot more differences then the bit depth only (he says this himself).
    And, again, in that experiment I see a lot of chroma noise (after software processing) and not highlight/shadows clipping so the connection to DR is really not immediate.

    In other words I suspect that all this fuss about 10 vs 12 bits is not the real point. E-shutter gives more noise, it is possible, but it is hardly related to the bit depth.
     
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  13. T N Args

    T N Args Agent Photocateur

    Dec 3, 2013
    Adelaide, Australia
    call me Arg
    Sure but if the 16MP version has one pixel with 12 bits of range, reading red, and now you add a green reading, isn't the maximum possible luminance value R+G higher than it was with R only? Hence more range? (since the lowest possible remains 0 (0R + 0G))
     
  14. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    The A/D converter used determines the number of bits. A/D converters don't do encoding. If the device used to do the A/D conversion does what you describe, then it's a hybrid device, because it's also doing digital signal processing.

    The number of bits in the output of an A/D determines the number of discrete levels (steps) possible for the output.
    The number levels is: 2^n, where n is the number of bits. The total input or output range is irrelevant.
    A 10 bit A/D converter can convert an analog voltage level to one of 1024 discrete digital output levels. A 12 bit A/D has steps that are 1/4 the size, and outputs one of 4096 levels. So it has better Granularity.
     
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  15. T N Args

    T N Args Agent Photocateur

    Dec 3, 2013
    Adelaide, Australia
    call me Arg
    To the OP, I saw somewhere that it is definitely 12 bit RAW with the e-shutter. I can't remember where I saw it, unfortunately.
     
  16. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
  17. b_rubenstein

    b_rubenstein Mu-43 All-Pro

    Mar 20, 2012
    Melbourne, FL
    I started reading that blog post and saw, Less bit depth effectively means less dynamic range, and more noise in the shadow areas. That is absolute rubbish and it's obvious that he is painfully ignorant of how and what A/D converters do.
     
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  18. T N Args

    T N Args Agent Photocateur

    Dec 3, 2013
    Adelaide, Australia
    call me Arg
    My comment refers to the E-M5 II (the topic of this thread). @Halaking@Halaking your linked blog post makes no mention of the E-M5 II. How is it relevant?
     
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  19. Halaking

    Halaking Mu-43 Top Veteran

    667
    Dec 17, 2012
    Los Angeles
    Morris
    Sorry, I totally forgot my thread topic, I was thinking of my early research of my GX7. my bad!
     
  20. acnomad

    acnomad Mu-43 Veteran

    284
    Jan 5, 2016
    Andy
    What are the basic pros/cons of using mechanical/electronic shutter?