New EM1-X mk-2?

mawz

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250
There's a few things I'd like to see.

1. A competitive EVF. None of the E-M1 series has this anymore, the E-M1X and E-M1III both launched after the current EVF setup was quite obsolete. At the E-M1X's pricing we should be seeing a 120fps 5.69m unit at 0.8x or greater magnification.

2. Frame rate should deliver the rated amount. All the 20MP E-M1's do 15.5fps rather than the claimed 18fps. That's still good, but not what is being advertized. I'd expect to see 20fps here, as that's the current standard (Fuji's, G9, Canon R5/6 and the Sony A9/A1 are all 20fps bodies in their typical configuration, the Fuji's and Sony A1 can hit 30fps in some configurations). I'd like to see real usable 30fps in e-shutter, or more. I don't need this for action, but anything that makes multi-shot more seamless is a win for me in my work.

3. Significant boost to sensor readout speeds. That new 20MP stacked sensor is just what was ordered. I'd love to see some noise improvements and DR, but speed is the #1 need.

4. More horsepower in the processing chain. This is always a benefit and it drives what is possible elsewhere. This should be the first TruePic X model and would be a great place to try out a modern phone SoC (from Samsung???) as they are wildly more powerful than any current camera SoC.

5. Improved AF tracking. When the E-M1II debuted in late 2016, it was by far the best AF of any mirrorless camera, the contest wasn't even close. A year later it was outmatched pretty seriously. What changed? The A9 and its stacked sensor and insanely good tracking. OMDS has come a long way since then, but there's still a lot of work to be done. m43 has some natural advantages here, the smaller sensor will always have a faster readout at a given pixel density which really helps things. Plus OMDS has the only cross-sensor PDAF mirrorless cameras out there. So step up the tracking capabilities (which needs #4 of course)

6. Expand the multishot capabilities. OMDS has a lot of advantages here, but they can go further and they need to because the competition is doing this as well.. Expand LiveND, that's a killer feature for landscape work and I'd love to see it duplicate Sony's sadly discontinued Smooth Reflections app for capabilities, give us more High-Res options. I'd love to see a pure debayer mode (4shot) and an expanded resolution mode (16 shot, 32 shot, 64 shot). There's benefits beyond just resolution with High-Res. I'd love to see the computational tricks we're seeing on Android and iOS come to m43, and that is doable if you get a real high-end SoC into the camera.

7. Better IBIS. Canon is now leading here in most regards, with the 8-stop capability in the new RF bodies. Oly's still got an edge in pure long-shutter speed IBIS, but it's time to see a 7.5-8 stop SyncIS capability from OMDS.

8. Long shutter speeds. 900 seconds is the new 30 seconds. LiveBulb and LiveComposite are awesome, but sometimes you just want a timed shot over 60 seconds. Even Nikon has finally woken up here and gone 900 seconds on their latest bodies.

9. Guided alignment for pano's, especially multi-row ones. I'd love to see assists for shooting multi-row pano's. Pick your layout, shoot the guide in the EVF. Maybe even in-camera multi-row stitching. Should be compatible with High-Res and HDR modes at a minimum.

10. Allow multi-shot combos. I should be able to shoot a focus stacked HDR High-Res image using the automation in the camera, picking one multi-shot option should not lock me out of the others.

11. Everything should be RAW, or at least 12bit. Focus Stacking in particular should be able to write out a 12-bit file. If you can't give me RAW, at least give me 16bit TIFF with 12 bit per pixel resolution. The current focus stacking implementation is great to work with, except the files are mostly useless to me.

12. Modern card options. Either dual-format CFE-A/UHS-II slots or CFE-B+SD (I like the former option better as it allows you both formats and the ability to use 2 cards of the same format)

13. USB-C Storage support. You're putting this stupidly fast interface on the camera and not letting us use cheap and really fast storage. Let us shoot to USB-C SSD if we have them. Oh, and work with somebody like Anker to get a Powerbank with passthrough, so you can power externally while doing this (Hmm....Anker USB-C PD bank with internal NVMe.....)
 

BPCS

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There's a few things I'd like to see.

1. A competitive EVF. None of the E-M1 series has this anymore, the E-M1X and E-M1III both launched after the current EVF setup was quite obsolete. At the E-M1X's pricing we should be seeing a 120fps 5.69m unit at 0.8x or greater magnification.

2. Frame rate should deliver the rated amount. All the 20MP E-M1's do 15.5fps rather than the claimed 18fps. That's still good, but not what is being advertized. I'd expect to see 20fps here, as that's the current standard (Fuji's, G9, Canon R5/6 and the Sony A9/A1 are all 20fps bodies in their typical configuration, the Fuji's and Sony A1 can hit 30fps in some configurations). I'd like to see real usable 30fps in e-shutter, or more. I don't need this for action, but anything that makes multi-shot more seamless is a win for me in my work.

3. Significant boost to sensor readout speeds. That new 20MP stacked sensor is just what was ordered. I'd love to see some noise improvements and DR, but speed is the #1 need.

4. More horsepower in the processing chain. This is always a benefit and it drives what is possible elsewhere. This should be the first TruePic X model and would be a great place to try out a modern phone SoC (from Samsung???) as they are wildly more powerful than any current camera SoC.

5. Improved AF tracking. When the E-M1II debuted in late 2016, it was by far the best AF of any mirrorless camera, the contest wasn't even close. A year later it was outmatched pretty seriously. What changed? The A9 and its stacked sensor and insanely good tracking. OMDS has come a long way since then, but there's still a lot of work to be done. m43 has some natural advantages here, the smaller sensor will always have a faster readout at a given pixel density which really helps things. Plus OMDS has the only cross-sensor PDAF mirrorless cameras out there. So step up the tracking capabilities (which needs #4 of course)

6. Expand the multishot capabilities. OMDS has a lot of advantages here, but they can go further and they need to because the competition is doing this as well.. Expand LiveND, that's a killer feature for landscape work and I'd love to see it duplicate Sony's sadly discontinued Smooth Reflections app for capabilities, give us more High-Res options. I'd love to see a pure debayer mode (4shot) and an expanded resolution mode (16 shot, 32 shot, 64 shot). There's benefits beyond just resolution with High-Res. I'd love to see the computational tricks we're seeing on Android and iOS come to m43, and that is doable if you get a real high-end SoC into the camera.

7. Better IBIS. Canon is now leading here in most regards, with the 8-stop capability in the new RF bodies. Oly's still got an edge in pure long-shutter speed IBIS, but it's time to see a 7.5-8 stop SyncIS capability from OMDS.

8. Long shutter speeds. 900 seconds is the new 30 seconds. LiveBulb and LiveComposite are awesome, but sometimes you just want a timed shot over 60 seconds. Even Nikon has finally woken up here and gone 900 seconds on their latest bodies.

9. Guided alignment for pano's, especially multi-row ones. I'd love to see assists for shooting multi-row pano's. Pick your layout, shoot the guide in the EVF. Maybe even in-camera multi-row stitching. Should be compatible with High-Res and HDR modes at a minimum.

10. Allow multi-shot combos. I should be able to shoot a focus stacked HDR High-Res image using the automation in the camera, picking one multi-shot option should not lock me out of the others.

11. Everything should be RAW, or at least 12bit. Focus Stacking in particular should be able to write out a 12-bit file. If you can't give me RAW, at least give me 16bit TIFF with 12 bit per pixel resolution. The current focus stacking implementation is great to work with, except the files are mostly useless to me.

12. Modern card options. Either dual-format CFE-A/UHS-II slots or CFE-B+SD (I like the former option better as it allows you both formats and the ability to use 2 cards of the same format)

13. USB-C Storage support. You're putting this stupidly fast interface on the camera and not letting us use cheap and really fast storage. Let us shoot to USB-C SSD if we have them. Oh, and work with somebody like Anker to get a Powerbank with passthrough, so you can power externally while doing this (Hmm....Anker USB-C PD bank with internal NVMe.....)
Its free to dream. All points arguably valid and to be wished for. Canon and Sony have massive resources behind them in comparison to JIP/ OMDS and a user base to match... how much would such an Olympus cost in order to make a profit with much lower sales volumes?
Panasonic are where we should be probably looking for the resources to create an amazing game changer camera. But once again how could they sell it profitably with an even smaller user base than Olympus.
For me, CAF and sensor IQ are the two improvements I hope for. I could live with everything else pretty much as it is.
For future sales success of m43, headline specs of the sensor MP and pricing are most important IMHO.
For me, 20/24mp is enough to stay with if readout speeds, noise control and DR are noticably improved. For most new potential m43 users, I think that a much higher MP number is needed to get their attention. The chance of that seems very slim, especially from Olys new owners, due to the effect on costs and the ability to implement in a design... Sony sensor division has teased 40+ MP m43 sensor design but it would take bringing a chequebook to a meeting with them and the knowledge your engineers can work with them... but again, how many Oly cameras would be sold at Sony A1 prices, never mind "just" twice the price of an EM1X or EM1.3?
 

mawz

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Messages
250
Its free to dream. All points arguably valid and to be wished for. Canon and Sony have massive resources behind them in comparison to JIP/ OMDS and a user base to match... how much would such an Olympus cost in order to make a profit with much lower sales volumes?
Panasonic are where we should be probably looking for the resources to create an amazing game changer camera. But once again how could they sell it profitably with an even smaller user base than Olympus.
For me, CAF and sensor IQ are the two improvements I hope for. I could live with everything else pretty much as it is.
For future sales success of m43, headline specs of the sensor MP and pricing are most important IMHO.
For me, 20/24mp is enough to stay with if readout speeds, noise control and DR are noticably improved. For most new potential m43 users, I think that a much higher MP number is needed to get their attention. The chance of that seems very slim, especially from Olys new owners, due to the effect on costs and the ability to implement in a design... Sony sensor division has teased 40+ MP m43 sensor design but it would take bringing a chequebook to a meeting with them and the knowledge your engineers can work with them... but again, how many Oly cameras would be sold at Sony A1 prices, never mind "just" twice the price of an EM1X or EM1.3?

Note that everything I'm talking about here is based on available hardware. Sony has announced availability of a stacked PDAF-capable 20MP m43 sensor, the EVF is off the shelf, use of a mobile SoC like a Snapdragon 865 would give the necessary horsepower. And remember, I'm talking about an E-M1XII, which is going to have a lot of margin to work with to pay for using a modern SoC and higher-end hardware. That level of SoC is probably not doable at the E-M1 Mark IV level (a lower-end or older Snapdragon could do and still seriously outperform TruePic IX, or frankly the modern EXPEED, DiGiC and BIONZ X processors, which are all rather underpowered compared to a Snapdragon or Apple ARM SoC)

Everything else is software development or just implementing currently available interfaces.
 

JonSnih

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use of a mobile SoC like a Snapdragon 865 would give the necessary horsepower.
Even fabrication alone of such cutting-edge SoC would cost too much (around $17 000 per wafer). Any node bellow 22 nm is damn expensive. If there is a way how they can buy an old design (so they dont have to pay for design costs, only for intellectual property fee - it still be a significant amount of cash) it will be something much older. I really doubt that any of Expeed/DIGIC/BIONZ SoC is on finer node than 55 nm.
 

mawz

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Even fabrication alone of such cutting-edge SoC would cost too much (around $17 000 per wafer). Any node bellow 22 nm is damn expensive. If there is a way how they can buy an old design (so they dont have to pay for design costs, only for intellectual property fee - it still be a significant amount of cash) it will be something much older. I really doubt that any of Expeed/DIGIC/BIONZ SoC is on finer node than 55 nm.

Then it's good that the Snapdragon series is commercially available....

I wasn't listing it as a type of SoC, but as one of several possible ARM SoC's that could be used
 

rezatravilla

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I would also love the EM1X, but not the weight.
The weight would put me back up at dSLR weight again.
So it is very tempting, and not, at the same time.

Now that we are retired, and when travel opens up again, we would like to travel to a few places, while we are still mobile.
My parent's travels came to a screeching halt, after my mom had a stroke.
If you hold it in hand, it's actually not so heavy
 

mawz

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Since there is three stops difference between Olympus 300/4 and Canon 600/11, the images from Canon will be noisier than those from Olympus. I also doubt that 600/11 performs as well as 300/4.
Given the Canon 600/11 is $699 and fixed aperture (like a mirror lens), I'd bloody well hope the $2750 300PRO performs better....
 

ac12

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Since there is three stops difference between Olympus 300/4 and Canon 600/11, the images from Canon will be noisier than those from Olympus. I also doubt that 600/11 performs as well as 300/4.

While FF has an advantage over m4/3, I don't think it has 3 stops advantage.

As I read the stuff on the the Canon 600/11, it is a consumer grade lens, so yeah the optics don't compare to the Olympus 300/4.
But with a fixed aperture, it can be designed with a less constraints. Just make it good at that one aperture.

The issue with an f/11 lens is as the sun goes down, or in the shade. You have to CRANK up the ISO to compensate.
While I can and do use a f/4 lens on the football field at night, I would be nuts to use a f/11 lens at night.
A f/11 lens is a DAY time lens.
 

BPCS

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If talking about 'DSLR weight', it certainly is on the heavy side.

The E-M1X weighs 997g
The D850 weighs 915g
The D500 weighs 760g
Add about 200g to each of those so that they also have a grip for similar handling and ability to use two batteries. Plus look at their size then.
 

BPCS

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While FF has an advantage over m4/3, I don't think it has 3 stops advantage.

As I read the stuff on the the Canon 600/11, it is a consumer grade lens, so yeah the optics don't compare to the Olympus 300/4.
But with a fixed aperture, it can be designed with a less constraints. Just make it good at that one aperture.

The issue with an f/11 lens is as the sun goes down, or in the shade. You have to CRANK up the ISO to compensate.
While I can and do use a f/4 lens on the football field at night, I would be nuts to use a f/11 lens at night.
A f/11 lens is a DAY time lens.
Yes... raising ISO 3 stops is, even for FF, not an equaliser. Maybe not only a day lens, dusk and dawn is probably ok to an extent, but if the sun is gone completely, f11 is going to be a noisy experience at say a night time football match.
 

ac12

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Add about 200g to each of those so that they also have a grip for similar handling and ability to use two batteries. Plus look at their size then.

That is generally why I prefer the EM1-mk2 and mk3.
I can put a battery grip on when I want more power or a vertical grip, and I can remove the grip when I don't.
With the 1X the grip is integral, and like it or not you are stuck with it.

But if you shoot where you always use the battery grip, then an integral one is better than a bolt on.

The best option depends on the use case.
 

ac12

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Yes... raising ISO 3 stops is, even for FF, not an equaliser. Maybe not only a day lens, dusk and dawn is probably ok to an extent, but if the sun is gone completely, f11 is going to be a noisy experience at say a night time football match.

At f/4, I shoot at ISO 6400.
At f/5.6, I shot at ISO 12800.
At f/11, I would have to shoot at ISO 51,200 :eek:
 
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While FF has an advantage over m4/3, I don't think it has 3 stops advantage.

As I read the stuff on the the Canon 600/11, it is a consumer grade lens, so yeah the optics don't compare to the Olympus 300/4.
But with a fixed aperture, it can be designed with a less constraints. Just make it good at that one aperture.

The issue with an f/11 lens is as the sun goes down, or in the shade. You have to CRANK up the ISO to compensate.
While I can and do use a f/4 lens on the football field at night, I would be nuts to use a f/11 lens at night.
A f/11 lens is a DAY time lens.
Let me clarify.
Theoretically, FF has two stops advantage over m43. In practice, it is probably about 1.5 stops.
When shooting wide open and at the same shutter speed (determined by camera or object movement), you lose three stops of exposure with the 600/11 when compared to 300/4. This means that you lose 1 to 1.5 stops of DR with a Canon combo.
 
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If talking about 'DSLR weight', it certainly is on the heavy side.

The E-M1X weighs 997g
The D850 weighs 915g
The D500 weighs 760g

Actually, as @BPCS noted, this comparison is like comparing apples to oranges. The EM1X has a built-in battery grip, and the two DSLRs don't.

How about comparing bodies that have built-in battery grips, similar to the EM1X?

The EM1X is 997 g, the Canon 1DX III is 1250 g, and the Nikon D5 is 1405 g. Not saying the X is a lightweight. I have one and it feels good in the hand, but the weight does tell. The EM1 III is 580 g. It makes a difference, but on the other hand, a friend of mine who is older than me prefers (unlike me) to use his 1.3 with the HLD-9 battery grip (225 g) attached. He feels it's more ergonomic and more comfortable, even with the additional weight. I'm still getting used to the X.

Screen Shot 2021-06-14 at 7.09.34 PM.png
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Stanga

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But if you shoot where you always use the battery grip, then an integral one is better than a bolt on.
When playing about with videos or the flash I tend to have the battery grip attached on the G90. But for shuffling about downtown I like the fact that the grip can be removed. Having all that weight round my neck gets tiring very quickly.
 

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