My latest foray into FF mirrorless - and why I'm sticking with m43

ijm5012

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The R system would probably make more sense as soon as the higher end models with IBIS come into play.
I agree, Canon's approach is very odd, launching high-end, high-dollar lenses alongside, what are IMO, lackluster bodies.

The R isn't bad, it just falls short on features when compared to the Z6 and A7 III. The RP is an entirely different discussion, as from a technical POV it's laughable, but from a commercial point of view it'll probably be a success (and as we all know, selling product and turning a profit is what truly matters).

I'll be interested to see what Canon manages to do with the EOS R system. There's rumors of an ultra-high MP body, but IMO what Canon really needs to do is figure out how to implement IBIS so that all of their lenses are stabilized, and figure out a way to deliver 4K video without some hideous crop factor.

The fact that Nikon has surpassed Canon for FF video quality really says a lot (to me) about how Canon has seemingly rested on their laurels regarding camera technology.
 

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I think the R is a big mistake, but the RP has it's place. I'm starting to come around to it.

It's not a high-end camera, but most people don't need high end cameras. It'll do the gooey out of focus shots better than any smaller format, it's small but has good ergonomics (at least compared to the likes of the Sony A6x00, Fuji X-Tx, or Oly E-M5 series ), and it has a flippy touchscreen (for selfies) and solid, reliable dual pixel AF.

It can't really be said to have 4K video, but who cares? It doesn't shoot more than 4 fps with AF, but who cares? It doesn't have IBIS, but aside from M4/3 (and the forlorn, partially-baked A6500 and A7 II), what competing cameras do? It doesn't have weather-sealing, or a particularly good EVF, or particularly great dynamic range but for most people in this general price class, none of that is out of the ordinary. We're spoiled by huge EVFs in mirrorless-land - the one in the RP is the same size as the OVF in the 6D, D4S, D750, D810, K1, etc...

The biggest problem is the lack of consumer oriented lenses, but the EF adapter is included in that $1300 purchase, so you can just trawl your local classifieds and it's not hard to find dozens of Canon DSLRs lenses for cheap, especially the ones that aren't "L" grade.
  • IBIS - My point is if you're starting from scratch TODAY and you don't think IBIS in on your "Must include" list that I think you have a problem.
  • Ergonomics - I agree Sony's A6### aren't good. But Fuji and the E-M5? Fuji could use a better grip on many of their bodies the rest is pretty good IMHO.
  • FPS / Video / ... I tend to agree, many get to focused on the specs but in reality never use 1/2 the capabilities.
  • "L" grade lens availability? - Sure but kind of defeats the "smallest and lightest" they are promoting.
...... however with the 16-80/4 due to arrive this year, that may be enough to tempt me back again. ....
They need to also add an updated 55-200 f/3.5-4.8 and since they could start at 80mm instead of 55mm it would be better to be 80-300mm. Then I could consider it. The current smaller options to only 345mm EQ or big/heavy/expensive option to 600mm EQ wouldn't work for my needs.

Most people who buy into the Canon RP will usually own just 1 or maximum 2 lenses. The RF 24-105 is a pretty good kit lens priced @$899. Something similar in the Olympus lineup is the 12-100 f/4 Pro, a $1299 lens. And the Olympus 12-200 as we can all agree isn't a great sharp lens is $899, the same as the 24-105 Canon lens.

We keep saying Canon make expensive RF lenses and yet Olympus DON'T? Come on! Someone who buys an Olympus E-M10 Mark III can slap on the 12-200 and be done with it. And the price difference between the OMD E-M10 iii vs Canon RP is $600. It is not a long stretch at all.

And what is all this talk about new photographers not willing to buy L lenses? Perhaps some of you REALLY NEED to get off your keyboards and attend those photo meetup groups in real life with real humans! Most of you are simply out of touch; perhaps too focused and engaged being only online by yourself, because just last week I attended a meetup group with a number of younger photographers (a total of 40 of the real human beings) and they are shooting with a number of Canon full frame DSLR with a number of L lenses! In fact, one young guy in his early early 30s who just bought himself a Canon 5D Mark ii with a 16-35L and 24-105 f/4 L for a pretty good price, love his system. He didn't mind the older body, because he understood that glass is MORE important than a modern body. These younger photographers were groomed by many Youtubers who educate them that to get the best, you NEED the best glass period. Which is why Sigma, Tamron and Tokina are now making top glass. You can't get away trying to sell those cheap Sigma and Tamron like they could in the past. Very few people in our group are shooting with kit lenses. The Sony group people are shooting with Zeiss f/2.8 and f/1.4 primes! The Nikon people -- with 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 zooms. The Olympus group, including myself, are shooting with top primes and 12-40Pro and 12-100 Pro. No 14-42 kit lenses. The Pentax group -- with their top glass. Even tourists I saw during our cruise last year were shooting with more expensive glass. These people know their stuff like we know our stuff. We have the f/1.2 pro primes which we know are good and given the choice would shoot that rather than with the f/2.8 or f/1.7 primes. Same with the 12-40 Pro rather than the 12-50 softy crap.
It's not that Olympus hasn't or doesn't make big, expensive glass. Or that the 24-105 wouldn't be a good companion for the RF. But just like what both Canon and Nikon did with APS-C, Canon seems to be going down the same road and not taking advantage the new format offers (through the 70-200 f/2.8 might for size at least).

Not sure I ever mentioned anything about new photographer not WANTING spend money on L glass. Just that Canon isn't really giving them an option.
 

bikerhiker

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I agree, Canon's approach is very odd, launching high-end, high-dollar lenses alongside, what are IMO, lackluster bodies.

The R isn't bad, it just falls short on features when compared to the Z6 and A7 III. The RP is an entirely different discussion, as from a technical POV it's laughable, but from a commercial point of view it'll probably be a success (and as we all know, selling product and turning a profit is what truly matters).

I'll be interested to see what Canon manages to do with the EOS R system. There's rumors of an ultra-high MP body, but IMO what Canon really needs to do is figure out how to implement IBIS so that all of their lenses are stabilized, and figure out a way to deliver 4K video without some hideous crop factor.

The fact that Nikon has surpassed Canon for FF video quality really says a lot (to me) about how Canon has seemingly rested on their laurels regarding camera technology.
Yeap, I think Canon felt too comfortable staying on top and realized they now have to play catch up. Still, Canon is in a precarious position with 4K because they have their C200 Cinema line of camera and if they made the EOS R or RP too good with 4K, then who wants to invest in their Cinema line? Nikon doesn't have this issue, so they could forge ahead and improve upon their video offerings.
 

DanS

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Yeap, I think Canon felt too comfortable staying on top and realized they now have to play catch up. Still, Canon is in a precarious position with 4K because they have their C200 Cinema line of camera and if they made the EOS R or RP too good with 4K, then who wants to invest in their Cinema line? Nikon doesn't have this issue, so they could forge ahead and improve upon their video offerings.

Unless they are an idiot, no one is going to put a mirrorless camera up against a C200. The C200 supports Cinema raw Light at 10 & 12 bit at multiple frame rates, it has proper time code support, XLR inputs with phantom power support, SDI output etc etc. They are a completely different user groups.
 
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ijm5012

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And Sony manages to deliver very good 4K with the A7 III and A7R III, despite selling their FS line of cameras.
 

bikerhiker

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Unless they are an idiot, no one is going to put a mirrorless camera up against a C200. The C200 supports Cinema raw Light at 10 & 12 bit at multiple frame rates, it has proper time code support, XLR inputs with phantom power support, SDI output etc etc. They are a completely different user groups.
They could of made a set of capable 4K cameras to get those video bloggers excited, and then get them locked in to upgrade to the higher end cameras later on.
 

Reflector

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Pay attention next time you use it to the proportion of support that is coming from your left hand vs the camera grip. I think that example may prove my point rather than yours.
You need to use my Sigma 120-300 on an E-M5 or any rangefinder body. You can. It just will suck miserably after a few hours because most of the weight is on the left hand and you're not able to exert much control as to assist in actions like steering the lens off from normal. You get to hold a large diameter cylinder while you have a few fingers on the camera body rather than a positive grip of any sort as to try to direct it around. You will be twisting your left hand as to control the lens most of the time and since you're not holding it in a vertical manner (no foregrip on the tripod foot) then it becomes a pretty miserable experience as you overload your left arm. It becomes better if the 120-300 has a vertical grip so you can have a more natural position but the grip allows for more positive control in regards to lens pointing once you transition to raising it up or start steering the lens when your head is pointing in another direction.

There's a reason that cameras gravitated towards having grips and grip addon features rather than being flat slabs. Flat slabs can work great if you're using small and light lenses. They work even better if you have a film advance lever to use as a very aggressive thumb rest to trap your thumb on. I don't mind using my E-M5 with a 50mm f/1.2 on a focal reducer without the grip too. It just isn't as comfortable when it comes to shooting it. Once you start putting long, large diameter lenses on the grip becomes relevant for control.
 

DanS

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They could of made a set of capable 4K cameras to get those video bloggers excited, and then get them locked in to upgrade to the higher end cameras later on.
I'm going to take it you are not into video are you?

The cross over from mirrorless to a low end production camera like a C200, or EVA1 is almost zero and I'll explain why.

A vlogger's camera might be anything form a mid grade m43 camera to a GH5s, or a Sony 6XXX series to an A7iii. So basically the camera itself will in the $500 to $3500 range. when they quickly realize the built in mics are complete crap, they usually get a camera top shotgun mic. Those range from $100 to $400 depending on what make/model you get and what accessorizes come with it. Next up, they quickly learn a camera top shotgun mic sucks if you are more than 2 or 3 feet from it, or need to move around. Thus they need to pick up a wireless lav mic. Assuming they did a little research they might get anything from a $150ish vhf kit to a $400 Rodelink digital kit, to a $600 Sennheiser G4 kit.

In camera pre-amps universally suck, so next step up the ladder requires them to choose between single system and dual system sound. single system sound is the most user friendly, and just requires an external pre-amp that ranges in price from $50 to about $250. The limitation to going this way is you are limited to 2 audio tracks, and usually 16bit at 48khz. Maxing out puts them in the $4500 to $5000 range assuming they want to use 2 mics at the same time.

If they go dual system sound then they need a digital recorder. first they need to decide how many audio tracks they really need, and how good do they want the pre-amps to be. The super low end would be something like a zoom H1 ~$100 that will give you 2 tracks but less than stellar pre-amps. The top end would be something like a $1000 Zoom F8 (8 tracks) or Sound Devises MixPre-6 (6 tracks).

Now they have to ask them selves how much grunt work can they stand, as the audio and video needs to be synced up in post. Manually is free, but it gets really old fast if you have a lot of clips. Audio waveform sync can be good in some cases, but it will fall apart If the in camera scratch audio isn't that great. The popular way to get around this is with timecode generators, and the most popular one right not is the Tentacle sync-e. If your recorder has built in timecode then you only need 1, if not you need 2. A set currently runs $520. Maxing out puts them in the $6000 to $6250 range. again this assumes they are only using 2 mics at the same time.




A C200 is an entry level professional cinema camera. The type of person who uses a camera like this, isn't normally going to be using the type of gear listed above. Their shotgun mics are going be stuff like the Sennheiser MKH 8050 $1200 and Schoeps Colette $1600. Pros can be really anal when it comes to wireless systems. Lowe end systems would be in the $750 just for the TX & RX. high end is going to be stuff designed for a sound bag like an Audio Limited A10 $2500. The actual mic can range from $250 to $1000.

Digital recorders are going to be more along the lines of a Sound Devises 633 ($3000) or Sound Devises 688 ($6000). Pros can usually get off cheap with timecode generators as most of the pro grade gear has it built in.

As you can see, you can easily double the cost of a high end consumer kit, and that's not even taking the other specially stuff you will need like v mount batteries and their and associated gear (easily $1000+), and done forget about the special battery packs and chargers you need for the audio bag. Then you have all the expensive high speed media you need to record your video to.

And last but not least, you need a computer with enough processing power and storage space to handle your raw footage. and finally High end 10 bit monitors that are calibrated regularly, as well as good near field monitors (speakers).



Or as I said initially, they are completely different user bases.

Videography it's nothing like photography the price difference between consumer and true professional is radically different.
 
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pellicle

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Videography it's nothing like photography the price difference between consumer and true professional is radically different.
you have systematically nailed why I will never do video in anything more than quick scraps together. To make a good video you need a lot more time and gear and preferably a team.

Still is altogether different.
 

DanS

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If you really want to make your eyes water, look up high end professional gear.



you have systematically nailed why I will never do video in anything more than quick scraps together. To make a good video you need a lot more time and gear and preferably a team.

Still is altogether different.
 
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masayoshi

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I understand anything 'pro' is expensive. But RP is not meant for pro, so it's totally OK. I think video features in ILC is somewhat overrated anyway. Majority of people don't need 4K, or >30min limitless recording, etc.

Btw, @DanS, several nitpicking small corrections
Sound Devises > Sound Devices
Sennheiser MKH8050 is the version designed to mount on mic bars in recording studio. The version usually mount on boom pole is MKH8060. Both of them are supercardiod but shell design is different.
Schoeps Colette series is more popular in recording studio (and many location audio recordists) for classical genre. For boom pole mounting, CMIT (mini or super) are better choice.
 

DanS

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Ugh, that's what I get for rushing while I write. If memory serves, you have a decent amount of audio gear for recording musical performances don't you?

@DanS , several nitpicking small corrections.
 
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I have found this thread quite entertaining.

As someone who entered digital photography with Nikon D70, worked up to a D300, then sold Nikon off to switch to Canon APS-C (T2i then 7D), sold all the Canon DSLR stuff to embrace Olympus M43, only to sell all the M43 stuff two years later for Canon FF (6D), then added 7D Mark II, sold the 6D for a 5D Mark IV, sold the 7D Mark II to get an 80D, picked up EOS M5 and EF-M lenses for small “take anywhere/travel” kit, sold the 5D Mark IV and M50 after buying the EOS R/RF 24-105mm kit, missed the M5, bought an M50 (still had some EF-M lenses).

Side note- in my opinion the R is about 95% as good as the 5D4, and in some areas is better. I didn’t expect to sell the 5D4, but after 2 weeks I realized it offers me nothing that I can’t get between the R and the 80D so it made sense to sell it before any further depreciation.

I guess you can say I have “experience”. Oh, and 10 days ago I jumped back into M43 with an impulse purchase of a Panasonic GX85 two lens kit I picked up for a steal ($388) because I’ve never been real happy with the lack of fast(er) EF-M zoom lens options. The little rangefinder style with the 12-32mm kit lens (which I am happy with so far) is what I “really” want for a compact “take anywhere” kit that I hoped the M5/M50 would be, so now I will probably say goodbye to the EOS M for good (anyone interested, feel free to PM).

After playing with the GX85 for a week I figured if I am going to have M43 again, I may as well get a “real” body too and take advantage of the 2x crop for compact 600mm capability. My G85 and Pany 100-300mm II gets delivered today.

Confused? I currently have Canon 80D, R, and M50, LOTS of EF lenses including multiple “L” models, a nifty-fifty (STM), and the consumer 70-300mm IS II USM. I also have the RF 24-105mm F4L and RF 35mm f1.8 and am eager to get my hands on the announce RF 15-35mm.

As for M43, this month I am back with a splash picking up the GX85, G85, 12-32mm, 45-150mm, 12-60mm, and 100-300mm lenses.

Oh, I also have a Canon G5 X point and shoot!


I always get a chuckle as people deride equipment they have never held or used based on YouTube and internet groups. A lot of folks seem to love to hate and tear down others or their gear or choices. Even the folks on Canon groups launch tirades on the R, most having never seen one in real life. Proclamations of a “good” camera must have this or can’t have that, Canon is retarded for this, what was Nikon thinking with that, why won’t Sony ... Comical, all of it. Last I checked, all the big names seem to be robust profitable companies. I am going to trust they know what they are doing and have their reasons for doing so.

First world problems... The technology and options we have these days is staggering. I am 56 years old and have “dabbled” in photography for as long as I can remember. My first camera was a Kodak Brownie, my first 35mm was a Pentax K1000. Times have sure improved and I am enjoying photography now more than ever.

Every system I have used had strengths and weaknesses. I am sure I have “lost” a lot of money bouncing around between different brands and formats, most of the lenses I bought and sold were used, so didn’t lose as much as I might have, heck I have even made money on some of them.

Other then my Canon 2Ti I’ve never bought a used camera (admittedly I am a bit of a “snob” that way) I am less concerned with something going wrong with a lens that has been well cared for than I am about the more complex electronics and such of the body.

Some of the changes were due to financial needs (downgrading “mid-line” Nikon gear for “consumer” grade Canon after displeasure with consumer grade Nikon body). Others were for some perceived benefit (saving money/size/weight dumping DSLR for M43), or performance (dumping M43 for DLSR for action/sports/BIF/aircraft) or even just good old fashioned ADD, wanting something “new”.

While not a “full time paid professional” I do make money with my gear shooting real estate listings and occasional simple wedding/social functions and previously sports events. This has allowed me to do two things I am very thankful for - 1) Buy a bunch of great gear that I would otherwise NEVER be able to justify to myself, let alone to my wife and 2) Experience a lot of different systems and formats.

I’ve come to realize every camera and every lens is a “tool”. Different tools will work better or worse for a particular job. You can use a screwdriver as a pry bar or a chisel, but it is really best for screwing/unscrewing screws and a chisel is best for chiseling while a bar is best for prying.

Thankfully I am past the point of having to make “either/or” decisions when it comes to my gear. I am happy to have M43 stuff again, I have honestly missed some of its strong points. I can’t conceive ever completely ditching one system for another again as my interests are varied and best served by having FF, APS-C, and M43 options and reaching for the right “tool” for any task at hand.
 

masayoshi

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Ugh, that's what I get for rushing while I write. If memory serves, you have a decent amount of audio gear for recording musical performances don't you?
No problem. And yes, I use Sound Devices and stereo pairs of MKH8020, 8040 for violin/grand piano recordings, so those names for cine production appeared a little odd. But overall, I agree with you completely that pro video market is a different world, and price standard is at least one order different. I was shocked when I wanted simple on-camera HDMI monitor, and how expensive they are. For small productions and indie movie makers, that's really a big hurdle. I used GH3/GH4 for video because my priority was the sound quality, and the video framing/exposure/focus was pretty much fixed in the beginning and kept throughout the recording (because it's for music competition/audition). These cameras provided 'good enough' quality videos, and I invested $$$ for audio quality.

I don't know why Canon doesn't make these 'cheap' pro video cameras (like GH5), but they probably sell enough still cameras and expensive cine equipment so they don't want to bother?
 

bikerhiker

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I'm going to take it you are not into video are you?

The cross over from mirrorless to a low end production camera like a C200, or EVA1 is almost zero and I'll explain why.

A vlogger's camera might be anything form a mid grade m43 camera to a GH5s, or a Sony 6XXX series to an A7iii. So basically the camera itself will in the $500 to $3500 range. when they quickly realize the built in mics are complete crap, they usually get a camera top shotgun mic. Those range from $100 to $400 depending on what make/model you get and what accessorizes come with it. Next up, they quickly learn a camera top shotgun mic sucks if you are more than 2 or 3 feet from it, or need to move around. Thus they need to pick up a wireless lav mic. Assuming they did a little research they might get anything from a $150ish vhf kit to a $400 Rodelink digital kit, to a $600 Sennheiser G4 kit.

In camera pre-amps universally suck, so next step up the ladder requires them to choose between single system and dual system sound. single system sound is the most user friendly, and just requires an external pre-amp that ranges in price from $50 to about $250. The limitation to going this way is you are limited to 2 audio tracks, and usually 16bit at 48khz. Maxing out puts them in the $4500 to $5000 range assuming they want to use 2 mics at the same time.

If they go dual system sound then they need a digital recorder. first they need to decide how many audio tracks they really need, and how good do they want the pre-amps to be. The super low end would be something like a zoom H1 ~$100 that will give you 2 tracks but less than stellar pre-amps. The top end would be something like a $1000 Zoom F8 (8 tracks) or Sound Devises MixPre-6 (6 tracks).

Now they have to ask them selves how much grunt work can they stand, as the audio and video needs to be synced up in post. Manually is free, but it gets really old fast if you have a lot of clips. Audio waveform sync can be good in some cases, but it will fall apart If the in camera scratch audio isn't that great. The popular way to get around this is with timecode generators, and the most popular one right not is the Tentacle sync-e. If your recorder has built in timecode then you only need 1, if not you need 2. A set currently runs $520. Maxing out puts them in the $6000 to $6250 range. again this assumes they are only using 2 mics at the same time.




A C200 is an entry level professional cinema camera. The type of person who uses a camera like this, isn't normally going to be using the type of gear listed above. Their shotgun mics are going be stuff like the Sennheiser MKH 8050 $1200 and Schoeps Colette $1600. Pros can be really anal when it comes to wireless systems. Lowe end systems would be in the $750 just for the TX & RX. high end is going to be stuff designed for a sound bag like an Audio Limited A10 $2500. The actual mic can range from $250 to $1000.

Digital recorders are going to be more along the lines of a Sound Devises 633 ($3000) or Sound Devises 688 ($6000). Pros can usually get off cheap with timecode generators as most of the pro grade gear has it built in.

As you can see, you can easily double the cost of a high end consumer kit, and that's not even taking the other specially stuff you will need like v mount batteries and their and associated gear (easily $1000+), and done forget about the special battery packs and chargers you need for the audio bag. Then you have all the expensive high speed media you need to record your video to.

And last but not least, you need a computer with enough processing power and storage space to handle your raw footage. and finally High end 10 bit monitors that are calibrated regularly, as well as good near field monitors (speakers).



Or as I said initially, they are completely different user bases.

Videography it's nothing like photography the price difference between consumer and true professional is radically different.
Thank you very much Dan S for the great write up and educating me on this topic. :)
 

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