More statements from JIP

[Bytesmiths]

Many R&D products do not make it much further than R&D.

Throughout my engineering career, I must say that more products I helped develop were killed before there were any sold than products that actually made it to market.

I think if you're batting .500, you're doing fine.

R&D costs are only a small portion.

Perhaps on a "successful introduction" basis.

But if half the products developed never make it to market, then fully amortized R&D costs should be doubled, no?

Even if doubled, I do agree that R&D is small, compared to cost of manufacturing. Doubling a small portion is still a small portion.

 

[RAH]

I have mentioned this before, but no one seems to think it is important: I thought that one of the reasons for 8K video (over 4K) was picking out individual shots within the video and making stills. In other words, a super-fast burst mode.

There was (is?) a lot of discussion about the potential for this, and I think it seems kind of an obvious idea if the technology could support it easily. And it would definitely appeal to STILL photographers. It seems that 4K was the first video resolution that would work for this (but kind of marginally), whereas 8k would be really good. No?

 

[BDR-529]

I have mentioned this before, but no one seems to think it is important: I thought that one of the reasons for 8K video (over 4K) was picking out individual shots within the video and making stills. In other words, a super-fast burst mode.

You still must be able to capture at least 6k RAW video in order to really use it as a an indefinitely long burst mode of 20MP stills.

Good news is that this has been possible since May using consumer ILC cameras like Panasonic S1H

"Panasonic has announced the LUMIX S1H firmware update program version 2.1 that supports RAW video data output. Working together with Atomos, a global company that creates video equipment for professional film creators, the new firmware enables the output of maximum 5.9K/29.97p and 59.94p 4K* RAW video data over HDMI to save it as Apple ProRes RAW on the Atomos Ninja V 4K HDR monitor-recorder."
https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/lumix/s/s1h/firmware_atomos.html

So there you go. All you need is S1H, Atomos Ninja V and a bag full of SSD disks to shoot an entire 90+ minutes soccer game in continuous 20MP 30fps burst.
You might need some time to go through all 162 000 images and select the good ones though.

(Technically speaking it's 19,5MP at 29.97fps but who cares)

 

[PakkyT]

But if half the products developed never make it to market, then fully amortized R&D costs should be doubled, no?

I am an engineer as well, so I won't pretend to understand all the nitty gritty details of accounting and these sort of business decisions. I know my company has an over all R&D budget every year and I believe that R&D budget is amortized over some number of years (probably determines by the type of products you make and their assumed lifetime in the market) and amortized against company yearly earning rather than having R&D expenses spent on a specific product tied directly into that product that received those specific R&D dollars. This smooths out the R&D costs over your entire line of products over several years.

Keep in mind there are a lot of R&D activities that are not specifically for new product development. Some portion is dedicated to things like upgrades, defect fixes, customer satisfaction related investigations that may result in some of those upgrades and fixes, or new accessory development for existing products already in production. Sometimes those efforts can not be tied directly to a specific new products. For Olympus, an example of that would be software development of new firmware to add new features that is being released against a bunch of models including older models that may not even be in production anymore (the last firmwares that made it into the E-M1.1 for example).

 

[John King]

@PakkyT Patrick, for a non-accountant, you got it pretty right. Cost accounting, and accounting generally, are the living example of how very simple things can make for almost infinite complexity.

An example: how does a phone company bring the electricity for a telephone exchange or mobile phone tower to account? Obviously, the customers must pay for it somehow, but how? What about roaming users who are not customers of that provider?

These things can become extremely complicated, extremely quickly.

 

[SpecFoto]

A full English translation by a reader of the comments of Mr. Shinichi Inagaki, managing director of JIP who is in charge of this acquisition, has been posted. It is very enlightening in a couple of ways.

https://www.43rumors.com/jip-press-text-translated-by-mistral/

1. JIP bought in 2012 an Olympus phone sales division. Since that time there has been continuing discussions between JIP and Olympus about Olympus selling the Imaging division to JIP. So all the "We are not selling the Imaging division" statements by Olympus are lies, plain and simple, they have been considering it since 2012.

2. Olympus has transferred many of the key R&D Imaging division employees to the the Medical division over the last few years. This may explain why there hav been no technical improvements to the camera lines in terms of EVF, sensor or other hardware items. Most of the Olympus improvements are software related so let hope the software engineers are part of the transfer process. Mr. Inagaki expressed concern that the key R&D personal may not transferred and is negotiating that point.

Mr Inagaki comments give me some relief that this is not a buy and cut up acquisition, he generally seem interested in making the new Olympus camera company a profitable venture. But on the other hand I am set with my Olmympus gear and don't need anything else from them. If JIP does continue with the Olympus lens road map and comes up with a small, but very sharp 17mm f1.4 lens @f1.4, I will be all over it. The new 100-400 might be nice but I already made a decision last year and bought the 100-400 GM from Sony, which with the APS-C mode on my 42MP A7RIII give me 150-600mm and with the 1.4x TC 210-840mm, more reach than I will ever need for what I shoot.

 

[Bytesmiths]

"We are not selling the Imaging division" statements by Olympus are lies, plain and simple

No, it's business.

If you are out with your wife, and you look at another woman and wonder "what it would be like," are you "lying" when you tell your wife or partner, "You're the only one for me?"

With your definition of lying, I suspect that every company in the world is guilty of "lies." When you're on a diet, and you look longingly at an ice cream shop, are you "lying?"

I don't hold it against Olympus that they had tentative talks with a company years ago that later ended up coming to fruition, all the while claiming they were not shopping for a buyer. That's simply how it works.

 

[RS86]

No, it's business.

If you are out with your wife, and you look at another woman and wonder "what it would be like," are you "lying" when you tell your wife or partner, "You're the only one for me?"

With your definition of lying, I suspect that every company in the world is guilty of "lies." When you're on a diet, and you look longingly at an ice cream shop, are you "lying?"

I don't hold it against Olympus that they had tentative talks with a company years ago that later ended up coming to fruition, all the while claiming they were not shopping for a buyer. That's simply how it works.

I'm not sure all those examples fit this well, but absolutely it's business and all companies do it.

In football for example, they say someone is not for sale for any price. Then some time goes by (the player wants more wages & better chances of winning in a bigger club), and suddenly they tell the player was sold (when they have acquired the replacement for decent fee).

They also have to because football clubs can be listed companies. They can't start rumours by telling the player might be for sale, it can be bad for stocks etc. This isn't held against any club for "lying" as far as I know.

I don't like how this is painted as Olympus being liars when everyone in business world has to do it in some ways.

 

[Aristophanes]

Likely there was division on the Olympus Board as to the path Imaging should take. That changed with a new CEO and the external investors on the Board. It was status quo, until it wasn’t.

 

[JonSnih]

2. Olympus has transferred many of the key R&D Imaging division employees to the the Medical division over the last few years. This may explain why there hav been no technical improvements to the camera lines in terms of EVF, sensor or other hardware items. Most of the Olympus improvements are software related so let hope the software engineers are part of the transfer process. Mr. Inagaki expressed concern that the key R&D personal may not transferred and is negotiating that point.

Many but not all of them. With the intent to develop only high end stuff you dont need as many as it used to be in Oly camp. If there is a perspective for them, R&D folks might be interested to work for JIP.
Edit: It might be a good thing that they still have the full software team. There are a lots of things they can fix/modify/improve/add via firmware updates.

If JIP does continue with the Olympus lens road map and comes up with a small, but very sharp 17mm f1.4 lens @f1.4, I will be all over it.

Yes, we need more primes. The last years are focused too much on zooms. I am missing a 14mm and a 20mm primes in Oly (later as Oly by JIP) line up. Some ppl would welcome an UWA prime as well. Not to mention the mythical 100mm macro lens. Another 17mm lens? I am not so sure. How much would you pay for it? A 17mm F1.8 mark II with updated optics would be more reasonable, I guess.

 

[SpecFoto]

No, it's business.

If you are out with your wife, and you look at another woman and wonder "what it would be like," are you "lying" when you tell your wife or partner, "You're the only one for me?"

With your definition of lying, I suspect that every company in the world is guilty of "lies." When you're on a diet, and you look longingly at an ice cream shop, are you "lying?"

I don't hold it against Olympus that they had tentative talks with a company years ago that later ended up coming to fruition, all the while claiming they were not shopping for a buyer. That's simply how it works.

Webster defines lying as:
lie
verb (2)
\ ˈlī \
lied; lying\ ˈlī-iŋ \
intransitive verb
1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive.
2: to create a false or misleading impression

I was in International business for over 30 years and dealt with Japanese, German, English, Honk Kong (pre 2000), Chinese, Italian, Swiss and Malaysian partners at times, I understand business. Olympus created false or misleading statements with the intent to deceive their customers into believing the rumors about a sale were not true. While it may be business, it is STILL falsifying information. If we were stockholders and they then sold the company, in the USA they could be sued and prosecuted for falsifying information just like this. I see a difference.

 

[SpecFoto]

Many but not all of them. With the intent to develop only high end stuff you dont need as many as it used to be in Oly camp. If there is a perspective for them, R&D folks might be interested to work for JIP.
Edit: It might be a good thing that they still have the full software team. There are a lots of things they can fix/modify/improve/add via firmware updates.
Yes, we need more primes. The last years are focused too much on zooms. I am missing a 14mm and a 20mm primes in Oly (later as Oly by JIP) line up. Some ppl would welcome an UWA prime as well. Not to mention the mythical 100mm macro lens. Another 17mm lens? I am not so sure. How much would you pay for it? A 17mm F1.8 mark II with updated optics would be more reasonable, I guess.

I would buy the 17mm f1.4 to replace my 17mm f1.8, as the native (FF) 35mm is one of my favorite focal lengths. In the USA, the 17mm f1.8 can be had for $300, while the 17mm f1.2 is most times $1,200. Paying double the price of the f1.8 or half the price of the f1.2 seems fair, so $600 or a bit higher.

 

[Danny_SWE]

Yes, we need more primes. The last years are focused too much on zooms. I am missing a 14mm and a 20mm primes in Oly (later as Oly by JIP) line up. Some ppl would welcome an UWA prime as well. Not to mention the mythical 100mm macro lens.

Yes... I have long thought Panny did the nicest lenses, P14, P20, P12-35(and 32) (hey, we also got the Laowa 7.5 now!!). But I like Oly bodies better, unfortunately they do not match 100%. Why couldn't they have co-operated m43, instead of going each their own way. Lens IBIS and function buttons should work on both brands! Maybe JIP can sort this out, but not likely.

 

[Bytesmiths]

1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive.
2: to create a false or misleading impression

I don't think Olympus did either of those things. "Intent" is difficult to prove, and your statement is as much "libel" as Olympus's statement is "lies."

"My property is not for sale."
"Hmmm… how about one million?"
"It's not for sale."
"Okay. So, two million?"
"I told you, it's not for sale!"
"Three million. Best and final."
"SOLD!"

Who was intending to deceive there? Who was lying?

 

[PakkyT]

I liken this to your favorite sports team saying they have no intention of trading their star player but they will still have discussions with other teams and listen to any offers. It is true their intention is not to trade the player, but you never know when you get an offer that might change your mind.

 

[Richard_M]

I have not watched the interview, and have quickly scanned this thread.

When they are discussing video, is it to do with handheld cameras, or are they looking to use the sensors in other products like security and drone cameras?

 

[Lcrunyon]

I have not watched the interview, and have quickly scanned this thread.

When they are discussing video, is it to do with handheld cameras, or are they looking to use the sensors in other products like security and drone cameras?

They’re likely doing both. They will still be doing cameras but also want to apply technologies in other areas such as security cameras. It’s a safe bet that this would translate into more attention to viddo for cameras as well.


As for whether Oly was lying, having discussed something at one point or another doesn’t mean they had decided to do it. They hadn’t, and they said they hadn’t, until they did. The negotiations haven’t even finished yet, and they probably won’t be 100% sure this is the way they’ll go until the negotiations are completed. Were they withholding some of their thoughts? Yes. But it would be naive to think that isn’t the norm. It’s already known that new American investors pushed hard for the change, and I’m sure the failing market and then the pandemic eventually just became too much.

 

[pake]

If we were stockholders and they then sold the company, in the USA they could be sued and prosecuted for falsifying information just like this. I see a difference.

So basically every company ever could be sued for lying.

 

[RS86]

So basically every company ever could be sued for lying.

It's America man. Suing is a big business.

 

[sigamy]

I know I'm becoming an old fart (actually my children say I'm already there), but I just don't get the enthusiast video market at all. It seems to me that making decent video requires a much higher degree of expertise, planning, equipment (and not just camera gear), skills, time, collaborators, and money than stills photography. Whereas I can head up into the mountains with my tripod and camera for a morning or evening and come back with some shots that are getting close to what a pro can do, if I want to do the same with video I'll be into planning scenes, figuring out multiple shot angles, dealing with lighting, handling re-takes, finding ways to creatively use pans and focus pulls, shoot b-rolls, sync the sound, find background music, perhaps have to deal with actors (amateur or otherwise), ... And then if all that's not enough, I'll be spending days (if not weeks) doing the editing. And when I'm all done, I'll still be miles from what even a low-end pro film maker can do.

You are not wrong. But, there are always levels/degrees of skill and results in any creative endeavor.

I came to MFT from video...I was always more of a video person (MTV generation). I got into making short films as a hobby and I started with MiniDV. These were the days of the Canon XL2 and Panasonic DVX100. These where the groundbreaking cameras for indie "no budget" filmmakers. Then to get the "film look" people put lenses in front of these small sensor MiniDV cameras to get shallow DOF. Then the Canon 5D Mark II hit and DSLR revolution.

I learned how to write a script, audition and select actors, build a shot list complete with details on the setups, lighting, props required. You learn about continuity real quick---actor was holding a beer in the wide shot, but he was not holding it in the close-up.

You learn that sound is 80% of your movie. I've had sound ruin two of my shorts, as I was using consumer gear and couldn't remove AC hum and other interference.

But...if it's what you are into, none of this is work. It's fun. It's learning. It's part of the process.

My short films are not great. There are few great moments that I'm proud of. I learned on every shoot. I think beyond the tech side, it really comes down to script and performances. When you see a good actor give a great performance and really nail it...there's nothing better.

I've met lots of young filmmakers who think they are going to make the next Clerks or Blair Witch...

I just like telling a story and growing with each project.