More statements from JIP

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The only thing that’s saved the industry so far is the general conservatism of the pro and prosumer market (retro and form factor and tactile).

Lenses are a big factor.
One, they are an investment. Two, there is some attachment to them, emotional or strict business sense.
If you get a new phone, you completely replace the old one. Sell, donate, recycle but you can move your files and leave anything physical behind.
But as an ILC photographer, you tend to hold onto your lenses for the reasons above. So if you get a new camera you need it to support the lenses you have come to trust upon.
So that kind of forces people like myself to look at camera makers that build cameras for µ43. I want to keep using my favorite lenses.
If the digital revolution is another phone with revolutionary processing and fantastic periscope telescope optics I couldn't care less.
I cannot attach my lenses to it and it's not even a camera for me if it doesn't have physical buttons.
Buttons are not just for some old-timey retro sense. They conform to the way our fingers work. I've returned cameras solely on the way the buttons were placed, if the ergonomics did not work for my hands.


Make sure Bluetooth is turned off, with both Apple and Android. Even if you get a connection (unlikely) transfer speed slows to a crawl!

I've been forced to use an OTG cable and card reader for my E-PM2 (no wireless in 2012), and it is blindingly fast compared to even well behaved WiFi.

Thank you for this suggestion. It did not work, in my case, but I did find the culprit. Since Android 11, writing the images to the SD card has become painfully slow, and is met with 2-3 second delay before and after transferring a photo. Writing straight to the phone's storage is as fast as it used to be (and has been since 2013).
Just another reason to ditch expandable storage for Android in the future. Fewer companies are supporting it and my next phone will have 256GB of non-expandable storage, for better or worse.

And I have fond memories of the Pen Mini 2, a capable and truly small and lightweight Olympus camera in dire need of a successor. The number of times I have cursed the lack of WiFi on it!
 
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RS86

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Lenses are a big factor.
One, they are an investment. Two, there is some attachment to them, emotional or strict business sense.
If you get a new phone, you completely replace the old one. Sell, donate, recycle but you can move your files and leave anything physical behind.
But as an ILC photographer, you tend to hold onto your lenses for the reasons above. So if you get a new camera you need it to support the lenses you have come to trust upon.
So that kind of forces people like myself to look at camera makers that build cameras for µ43. I want to keep using my favorite lenses.
If the digital revolution is another phone with revolutionary processing and fantastic periscope telescope optics I couldn't care less.
I cannot attach my lenses to it and it's not even a camera for me if it doesn't have physical buttons.
Buttons are not just for some old-timey retro sense. They conform to the way our fingers work. I've returned cameras solely on the way the buttons were placed, if the ergonomics did not work for my hands.

A personal experience. I bought a good camera phone at the end of 2015, with OIS, and it got me interested in photography. I liked it. Too bad it broke after 2,5 years, and the repair would have cost too much compared to the cost of a new model.

(Curious sidenote: The repair shop said that this is a known fault in that model. Which is no surprise, as tech companies usually want you to upgrade, so why not place some bad component that will break after a certain period, for example.)

So after that I bought into M43, lucky for me, as I found out that I like macro photography the most, but of course do other things too. To get enough quality, it seems a camera phone would cost 600-1000 €, and how long would that be enough? Or how long would that phone last? What about the battery?

Just like you say, buying some good glass will last a long time, and I cannot imagine myself shooting with a camera phone like I do now. It would limit my creativity too much.

I do have a camera phone for basic stuff, because of convinience, but not for my art. I usually have paid ~250 € for my phones, but my current Motorola Moto G8 Power cost 150 € last Black Friday. It does everything I need from a phone. I basically just wait that the battery is ruined (unless it breaks otherwise), and upgrade to some budget phone again, which will at that time be better than this.
 

John King

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Lenses are a big factor.
One, they are an investment. Two, there is some attachment to them, emotional or strict business sense.
If you get a new phone, you completely replace the old one. Sell, donate, recycle but you can move your files and leave anything physical behind.
But as an ILC photographer, you tend to hold onto your lenses for the reasons above. So if you get a new camera you need it to support the lenses you have come to trust upon.
So that kind of forces people like myself to look at camera makers that build cameras for µ43. I want to keep using my favorite lenses.
If the digital revolution is another phone with revolutionary processing and fantastic periscope telescope optics I couldn't care less.
I cannot attach my lenses to it and it's not even a camera for me if it doesn't have physical buttons.
Buttons are not just for some old-timey retro sense. They conform to the way our fingers work. I've returned cameras solely on the way the buttons were placed, if the ergonomics did not work for my hands.

Some people choose pseudonyms that are antithetical ...

Thank you for this suggestion. It did not work, in my case, but I did find the culprit. Since Android 11, writing the images to the SD card has become painfully slow, and is met with 2-3 second delay before and after transferring a photo. Writing straight to the phone's storage is as fast as it used to be (and has been since 2013).

Hmmm. My phone is on Android 10, and has a 128GB micro-SD card. It's just as fast as ever. Maybe your card is dead, or dying?

Just another reason to ditch expandable storage for Android in the future. Fewer companies are supporting it and my next phone will have 256GB of non-expandable storage, for better or worse.

I most certainly hope not. That's the Apple and Google model - Need more memory? Chuck away your perfectly good phone and buy another one with exactly the same design limitation ... 🤮
And I have fond memories of the Pen Mini 2, a capable and truly small and lightweight Olympus camera in dire need of a successor. The number of times I have cursed the lack of WiFi on it!

It's great. The OTG cable and USB3 SD card reader live in the side pocket of my tablet case. Easy and fast to transfer RAWs, if one wants to.
 
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What do you mean with "platform"? What do you mean with general conservatism?

Dedicated camera makers rely on their processors, like TruePic or Bionz. These plus the camera OS are proprietary and costly, and locked to firmware. Unlike a smartphone, these are rudimentary systems designed for low power consumption in the SLR form factor. They don’t have either the processing capacity to perform at the level of a smartphone, and never will. Already for video the trend to increase IQ is off camera processing. The camera is just a sensor plus glass.
 

RS86

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Dedicated camera makers rely on their processors, like TruePic or Bionz. These plus the camera OS are proprietary and costly, and locked to firmware. Unlike a smartphone, these are rudimentary systems designed for low power consumption in the SLR form factor. They don’t have either the processing capacity to perform at the level of a smartphone, and never will. Already for video the trend to increase IQ is off camera processing. The camera is just a sensor plus glass.

You basically just repeated what you said above of what I quoted, not answering my questions.

"That leaves optical camera makers as mostly just ground and polished glass suppliers. They no longer have a “platform”." <-What does this mean?

"the general conservatism of the pro and prosumer market" <-What does this mean?
 
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You basically just repeated what you said above of what I quoted, not answering my questions.

"That leaves optical camera makers as mostly just ground and polished glass suppliers. They no longer have a “platform”." <-What does this mean?

"the general conservatism of the pro and prosumer market" <-What does this mean?

A software platform. They are all proprietary, closed systems. All have barely functional networking. None allow third-party software. Their firmware is based on 20 year-old code optimized for JPEG. Their UXs are poor compared to modern mobileOSs. All this locks the industry into a small, shrinking market model that doesn’t play nice with others. When I tested for  it was seen as a major reason why the company stopped supporting Aperture and started actively marketing against the established industry, stealing all their customers. Each imaging company all wanted their own walls. It was a retreat from the era when Japanese companies agreed synergies and standards like JPEG and iconography. Now there is supposedly little industry cooperation even as their markets continue to shrink. Japan went through a “soft crisis” 25 years ago that frowned on software engineering in favour of hardware. An entire generation missed the explosion of OS and app development and innovation. They’ve even lost the silicon market for making the chips. So when people say that the camera industry needs better UXs and AI, those frameworks aren’t in Japan anymore, and not with these companies. They don’t have the talent nor the products nor the patents. Anything to do with software, processing, and networking to keep the remaining ILC segment keep up with advancements in smartphone imaging now has to come from third parties, external to Japan. This fractured industry with very low capital now, bleeding money and consumers, is no longer in charge of its own destiny. Look at why the EM1.3 RAW files can’t be read by the macOS.

Conservatism is that the industry reverts to designs with proven aspects in historical sales, but with a stubborn refusal to cannibalize itself, leaving the industry vulnerable in the same way no Japanese compact camera maker foresaw smartphone cameras taking away their entire revenue base. Within 5 years Japan went from making 95% of all image making devices to making less than 5%. Young people especially are not purchasing dedicated cameras. The recent Canon and Nikon financials show that.
 

John M Flores

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I'm surprised that Sony hasn't built a camera with a Qualcomm mobile chip and Android. Thanks to their Xperia phones, they already have the app for such a camera.
 

John M Flores

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Like Samsung tried with the "Galaxy Camera"?

No, better. The Samsung Galaxy Camera relied too much on the touch screen to be of any interest to enthusiast photographers and was before phones began incorporating AI and computational photography into their phones. It was a poor execution of an idea utilizing tech that may not have been ready for the vision of the product. Sort of like an Apple Newton.

Imagine an RX100 with the computational photography capabilities of an iPhone that connected seamlessley to your XPeria phone. Imagine taking a photo with the camera and having the photo automagically transferred to your Xperia phone for further processing and sharing.

As an example of what's possible, I have an Insta 360 One R action camera that can shoot 5.6k 360 video. After I shoot some video, I can wirelessly connect my camera and phone (more easily than any other camera I've owned) and review 360 footage on my phone without having to download the footage to my phone first. As I playback footage on my phone, the camera is wirelessly streaming the 360 footage to my phone. I can even make edits on my phone and when I'm ready, the camera and phone will make the edits to the original video and transfer a copy to my phone for sharing.
 

fortwodriver

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Well to be fair, if the M market is very small, perhaps it’s because they’re sold out pretty much everywhere? Used ones sell for about the full asking price of a new one. Pretty much only the monochrome version is even available. And if the lenses are expensive, it’s probably because they’re permanently attached to very expensive cameras.

I think the original point has some validity, however I’d argue that Fuji has followed at a lower price point with the X100 series.

I think you have that backwards. Leica produce far fewer cameras than Nikon or Canon. They have a much smaller production scale.

They do that on purpose. It's not supposed to be marketed like a Canon or a Nikon. It's meant to be a niche, lifestyle, and image brand. So much so that there are accessory makers that prey specifically on Leica owners with up-charged products.

No, the lenses are expensive before they get anywhere near a body. Zeiss M series lenses cost a fraction of what Leica's lenses cost... Lots of Leica folk owned Zeiss glass until the first Leica M digital cameras came to market and the productions volumes of Leicas shrank dramatically while they rebuilt the brand.
 

fortwodriver

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Lenses are a big factor.
One, they are an investment. Two, there is some attachment to them, emotional or strict business sense.

Something is only an investment as long as the investor is alive. Likewise, that attachment is moot once the buyer passes on and the kids get it. There's a really good chance the kids won't care about that lens their parent "invested" in. They'll just cash out as quickly as they can, often below the presumed value of the investment chalking it up to a kind of pseudo capital gains tax.

I mean, just look at all those folks who wouldn't settle for anything less than a Summicron to take pictures of themselves holding their Leicas? They actually feel those lowly Summarit lenses are beneath them.

Either way, those folks are really not looking anywhere near Olympus for a camera... They barely even think "camera" when they look at a Leica.
 

John King

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I think you have that backwards. Leica produce far fewer cameras than Nikon or Canon. They have a much smaller production scale.

They do that on purpose. It's not supposed to be marketed like a Canon or a Nikon. It's meant to be a niche, lifestyle, and image brand. So much so that there are accessory makers that prey specifically on Leica owners with up-charged products.

No, the lenses are expensive before they get anywhere near a body. Zeiss M series lenses cost a fraction of what Leica's lenses cost... Lots of Leica folk owned Zeiss glass until the first Leica M digital cameras came to market and the productions volumes of Leicas shrank dramatically while they rebuilt the brand.
I've owned lots of Leitz Summicron lenses (and a few Zeiss lenses as well). I sold my original Leica M2 kit back in the early 1970s, when a Leitz UV filter cost more than the excellent Olympus f/1.8 50 ...

I briefly owned an M3 with some Summicron lenses in the mid 1990s. It didn't last long.

Nice gear, but priced for people with far too much money who consider that their status is somehow improved by owning overpriced toys ...

It's very nice that some manufacturers make the very best thing that they can, regardless of cost.

That doesn't mean that I will pay for 'status symbols'. If it makes some people feel better about themselves, that's good. If it makes some people feel superior to others, they need to see a psychiatrist (but they won't ... ).
 

fortwodriver

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I've owned lots of Leitz Summicron lenses (and a few Zeiss lenses as well). I sold my original Leica M2 kit back in the early 1970s, when a Leitz UV filter cost more than the excellent Olympus f/1.8 50 ...

I briefly owned an M3 with some Summicron lenses in the mid 1990s. It didn't last long.

Nice gear, but priced for people with far too much money who consider that their status is somehow improved by owning overpriced toys ...

Haha... Absolutely. I got into the system by buying the most hated Leica ever produced - the M5. It was the UgLeica. They were cheap and not hard to find. I had a few highly regarded ElCan (Canadian Made Leitz) lenses that were sharp.

Worked like a charm, but got a lot of snooty "That's not a real Leica" comments from the Leicaeratti.
 
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John King

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Haha... Absolutely. I got into the system by buying the most hated Leica ever produced - the M5. It was the UgLeica. They were cheap and not hard to find. I had a few highly regarded ElCan (Canadian Made Leitz) lenses that were sharp.

Worked like a charm, but got a lot of snooty "That's not a real Leica" comments from the Leicaeratti.
Yeah, well.

I've also had Schneider-Kreuznach and Rodenstock lenses on MF bodies. They were also very nice. However, now that I'm a silly old fart, I'm glad I still have both my kidneys ... :rofl: .

Who owns Leica today? Huawei?
Sure as hell isn't Leitz Wetzlar in Germany ...
 

hoodlum

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Thom Hogan posted some of his comments on OM Digital Solutions.

https://bythom.com/newsviews/crazy-rumor-specifications.html

While the Internet still is predicting the demise of the former Olympus Imaging group, I'm not at all worried about OM Digital Solutions R&D, or their development, engineering, and manufacturing of new products. My worry about the new entity is how well they'll manage sales and marketing, and particularly so given how much the Japanese home market was the primary outlet for the Olympus product. I'm not sure that OM Digital Solutions can survive with just a Japanese sales and marketing thrust, the volume is just too low to stay fully competitive, and the Japanese consumer market is not as robust as other markets. Thus, I've been paying attention to how OM Digital Solutions is working in the US, Europe, and other markets. So far, so good, but it's unclear how much of that is being driven by the new company rather than the vestiges of the old.
 
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