More statements from JIP

Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
1,218
Location
Rankin Inlet, Nunavut
The referenced article is actually 2 interviews. The first with JIPs Managing Director (and also an owner if the translation is correct) and a follow-up with a Japanese digital camera industry analyst.

The JIP segment speaks mostly about video, an under-performing asset within Olympus. He speaks to leveraging video in commercial application, using the existing Olympus Vietnam manufacturing facility, but also following the VAIO contract outsourcing model, while selling broadly in current markets stressing the ”pro” products. Presumably this means existing product lines. There’s nothing specific about photography, optics, sub-brands, etc. It’s mostly about stopping the consumer camera segment fiscal bleeding (quickly) and then making commercial, business-to-business products for industrial application. The Manager makes it clear that the current m43 camera business model cannot make enough revenues without some form of expansion into non-consumer applications. That part is vague, but they do speak about Olympus medical imaging and using those same processes in other industries, so automation and surveillance? He doesn’t detail. There is a talent retention issue in the negotiations.

The analyst segment is harsher. The analyst sees little future for the m43 sensor playing to the necessary higher-end consumer digital photography and video market. On that point the two interviews agree; that m43 cannot survive alone as a consumer product. They even work Panasonic into the analysis stating that company is putting all their efforts in FF to chase the necessary survival revenues within the camera and video industry. They question JIPs capacity to make a go of it in the digital camera market on m43 alone. The revenues simply aren’t there given the massive and ongoing market contraction and too small market share. The analyst isn’t questioning where JIP is going with the tech. They question the viability of m43 given existing market conditions, the market JIP is buying into.

Emphasis on video, not photo, in both segments. Emphasis on sensor size as well. We may have entered an era where independent digital photography is no longer economically viable if their consensus is accurate. Photography enthusiasts may have to get used to video driving the agenda. Panasonic may have got it right all along.
 

BDR-529

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
317
... but also following the VAIO contract outsourcing model, while selling broadly in current markets stressing the ”pro” products. Presumably this means existing product lines. There’s nothing specific about photography, optics, sub-brands, etc. It’s mostly about stopping the consumer camera segment fiscal bleeding (quickly) and then
Both computers and smartphones can be ordered from several ODM providers without any in-house R&D whatsover because everything is based on same standard components and can manufactured by any EMS provider. It's literally like building with LEGO.

All you need is a brand, some kind of distribution channel (ODM can provide you one in full turn-key solution) and then you just tick the correct boxes on their menu: Hmm, today I feel like this processor, this chipset, this amount of that memory aaaand let's have 4k OLED display because it's Friday and I feel lucky. Now, where do I send the logo you should print on this product? Is pdf OK or do you need eps?

Unfortunately the same is not true for high end ILC market. Everyone tries to lock their customers in to closed mounts, dedicated processors, sensors which are reserved for only brand X, in-house algorithms and in general as incompatible components as possible. JIP can't go around shopping for their next "pro" ILC models simply because there are no standard components, platforms or interfaces and therefore no ODM houses in this market.

(This model works for lenses, though. Even today there are plenty of "native" Brand X lenses which are known to come from some 3rd party lens manufacturers with just customers logo printed on them)
 
Last edited:

S-Osolin

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
87
Olympus brand and they can market and sell cinema glass with ease. Just m.Zuiko/om-d and it's a really hard sell.
 

Mike Wingate

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
3,052
Location
Altrincham
Real Name
Mike Wingate
Even with the same camera manufacturer, they cannot mix and match as there are different body sizes and shapes. Will most items fit into a GX8. Some models with a flip screen, others with a tilt. Stick on a pentaprism top for some. Price differentiation. Not sure. Lego approach sounds great, but...
 

pdk42

One of the "Eh?" team
Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
7,247
Location
Leamington Spa, UK
The referenced article is actually 2 interviews. The first with JIPs Managing Director (and also an owner if the translation is correct) and a follow-up with a Japanese digital camera industry analyst.

The JIP segment speaks mostly about video, an under-performing asset within Olympus. He speaks to leveraging video in commercial application, using the existing Olympus Vietnam manufacturing facility, but also following the VAIO contract outsourcing model, while selling broadly in current markets stressing the ”pro” products. Presumably this means existing product lines. There’s nothing specific about photography, optics, sub-brands, etc. It’s mostly about stopping the consumer camera segment fiscal bleeding (quickly) and then making commercial, business-to-business products for industrial application. The Manager makes it clear that the current m43 camera business model cannot make enough revenues without some form of expansion into non-consumer applications. That part is vague, but they do speak about Olympus medical imaging and using those same processes in other industries, so automation and surveillance? He doesn’t detail. There is a talent retention issue in the negotiations.

The analyst segment is harsher. The analyst sees little future for the m43 sensor playing to the necessary higher-end consumer digital photography and video market. On that point the two interviews agree; that m43 cannot survive alone as a consumer product. They even work Panasonic into the analysis stating that company is putting all their efforts in FF to chase the necessary survival revenues within the camera and video industry. They question JIPs capacity to make a go of it in the digital camera market on m43 alone. The revenues simply aren’t there given the massive and ongoing market contraction and too small market share. The analyst isn’t questioning where JIP is going with the tech. They question the viability of m43 given existing market conditions, the market JIP is buying into.

Emphasis on video, not photo, in both segments. Emphasis on sensor size as well. We may have entered an era where independent digital photography is no longer economically viable if their consensus is accurate. Photography enthusiasts may have to get used to video driving the agenda. Panasonic may have got it right all along.
I know I'm becoming an old fart (actually my children say I'm already there), but I just don't get the enthusiast video market at all. It seems to me that making decent video requires a much higher degree of expertise, planning, equipment (and not just camera gear), skills, time, collaborators, and money than stills photography. Whereas I can head up into the mountains with my tripod and camera for a morning or evening and come back with some shots that are getting close to what a pro can do, if I want to do the same with video I'll be into planning scenes, figuring out multiple shot angles, dealing with lighting, handling re-takes, finding ways to creatively use pans and focus pulls, shoot b-rolls, sync the sound, find background music, perhaps have to deal with actors (amateur or otherwise), ... And then if all that's not enough, I'll be spending days (if not weeks) doing the editing. And when I'm all done, I'll still be miles from what even a low-end pro film maker can do.

I get that pros doing weddings etc have an easier time - but we all know the pro market is way too small to support an industry. So what are all the rest of the buyers of fancy 4K and 8K ILC cameras doing? If it's shooting stuff for YouTube then it seems cameras like the GH5 etc are overkill for 99% of what I see put up there.

Or maybe there's some other market that I'm just missing? Perhaps there's content out there that I'm just unaware of?
 

RichDesmond

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
788
Location
United States
I know I'm becoming an old fart (actually my children say I'm already there), but I just don't get the enthusiast video market at all. It seems to me that making decent video requires a much higher degree of expertise, planning, equipment (and not just camera gear), skills, time, collaborators, and money than stills photography. Whereas I can head up into the mountains with my tripod and camera for a morning or evening and come back with some shots that are getting close to what a pro can do, if I want to do the same with video I'll be into planning scenes, figuring out multiple shot angles, dealing with lighting, handling re-takes, finding ways to creatively use pans and focus pulls, shoot b-rolls, sync the sound, find background music, perhaps have to deal with actors (amateur or otherwise), ... And then if all that's not enough, I'll be spending days (if not weeks) doing the editing. And when I'm all done, I'll still be miles from what even a low-end pro film maker can do.

I get that pros doing weddings etc have an easier time - but we all know the pro market is way too small to support an industry. So what are all the rest of the buyers of fancy 4K and 8K ILC cameras doing? If it's shooting stuff for YouTube then it seems cameras like the GH5 etc are overkill for 99% of what I see put up there.

Or maybe there's some other market that I'm just missing? Perhaps there's content out there that I'm just unaware of?
Amen to all that.

My wife is a great cook, and we've toyed with the idea of doing some cooking videos. Nothing serious, and certainly not a commercial proposition. But I'd still want to do something that looked and sounded good, not an "iPhone on a tripod video".
So I did a little research and quickly realized that I was in waaaaay over my head. Just a much bigger and more complicated task than I want to take on.

Just seems that as soon as you move beyond phone video things escalate very quickly.
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
332
Location
The Netherlands
Real Name
Roel
We may have entered an era where independent digital photography is no longer economically viable if their consensus is accurate. Photography enthusiasts may have to get used to video driving the agenda. Panasonic may have got it right all along.
Looking at the decline of the market up to the corona-period (not taking in account these strange times), I would agree. Almost all manufacturers where (and still are) struggling. Almost all have steep declines in revenue and even steeper declining profit for years (regardless of sensor size). The question will be where the bottom of this decline will end up being.
With the huge increase in video creation I expect that video will be driving innovation going forward for some time more.

I get that pros doing weddings etc have an easier time - but we all know the pro market is way too small to support an industry.
This is anecdotal (based on few pro's I know) but often a pro photographer will only upgrade if the upgrade brings more revenue or something breaks. I know many who have no plans to upgrade from their Nikon d850's as a new shiny mirrorless body will not increase revenue and a switch still needs quite an investment (and what would be the real benefit?). IMHO the market is/was driven by us, photo enthusiasts. For years this did work out as improvements in digital photography where huge jumps but now improvements are way smaller than years ago.

The uptake is that this is a clear indication of a mature, albeit niche market. The technology has reached a level that in general even enthusiasts don't feel an urge to upgrade to the latest and greatest. And I expect we will gradually settle to the level we have seen with analog photography (with improvements to cameras bodies years apart).
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
1,218
Location
Rankin Inlet, Nunavut
Amen to all that.

My wife is a great cook, and we've toyed with the idea of doing some cooking videos. Nothing serious, and certainly not a commercial proposition. But I'd still want to do something that looked and sounded good, not an "iPhone on a tripod video".
So I did a little research and quickly realized that I was in waaaaay over my head. Just a much bigger and more complicated task than I want to take on.

Just seems that as soon as you move beyond phone video things escalate very quickly.
Yes. But "much bigger and more complicated" is when you call the pros and their equipment, and that's a sales opportunity. That's what JIP sees.

A bunch of amateur photographers racing around the same scenes (Yosemite...however it's pronounced, Grand Canyon, Eiffel Tower, Taj Mahal) are going to get the exact same shot as 1 million other photos on Instagram or Flickr. The differentiator is production values, and a cinema shoot is a production.

It's difficult to saturate the video market but the photography market is over-subscribed already. People will spend hours watching YouTube reaction videos (those twins!) and TikTok's of a guy cleaning the pool, as a replacement for passive culture television watching. Photography never had that same time/space cultural thing. It's always been magazine or vernacular or the dreaded vacation slideshow. People would spend hours a day watching TV, but look at the photo album twice a year.

The JIP article speaks of medical imaging as in video used in 'scopes. Or automation. That's where the $$ is. Moving images have always been a massively larger economic and culturally visceral effort than photography.

That may explain why bird photography is oddly popular and a driving force. Birds move so fast and so spectacular, they don't video well in detail. But you cannot really do the equivalent of the Attenborough Life or Planet Earth series without phenomenal video. There is no photography equivalent.
 

retiredfromlife

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
4,357
Location
Sydney, Australia
I know I'm becoming an old fart (actually my children say I'm already there), but I just don't get the enthusiast video market at all. It seems to me that making decent video requires a much higher degree of expertise, planning, equipment (and not just camera gear), skills, time, collaborators, and money than stills photography. Whereas I can head up into the mountains with my tripod and camera for a morning or evening and come back with some shots that are getting close to what a pro can do, if I want to do the same with video I'll be into planning scenes, figuring out multiple shot angles, dealing with lighting, handling re-takes, finding ways to creatively use pans and focus pulls, shoot b-rolls, sync the sound, find background music, perhaps have to deal with actors (amateur or otherwise), ... And then if all that's not enough, I'll be spending days (if not weeks) doing the editing. And when I'm all done, I'll still be miles from what even a low-end pro film maker can do.

I get that pros doing weddings etc have an easier time - but we all know the pro market is way too small to support an industry. So what are all the rest of the buyers of fancy 4K and 8K ILC cameras doing? If it's shooting stuff for YouTube then it seems cameras like the GH5 etc are overkill for 99% of what I see put up there.

Or maybe there's some other market that I'm just missing? Perhaps there's content out there that I'm just unaware of?
Same as you I dont know where the video market really is. Unless it is the younger generation. But my daughter and all her friends just use their phone. they have no interest in video settings like in a camera. They just want to point and hit the button and auto video. the few 30 second videos I have taken with the camera are just press the little red button.

I have belonged to a few camera clubs and not many people dabble in video from what I have seen.

I often wonder if the hype is mainly from the people who review cameras on youtube.

I do realise there are a lot of people who do travel and lifestyle youtube videos but I wonder what percentage of the market are they.

Supose I may be suprised how many do video as that is what is driving the market
 

pdk42

One of the "Eh?" team
Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
7,247
Location
Leamington Spa, UK
On the video front - a little anecdote. I went to a presentation where a young and enthusiastic film-maker was showing us the results of her MA in film production. She talked about the process of making the film and then we got a showing of it. Basically, it took her 9 months of effort end-to-end. That included writing a script (it was a fact-based drama), finding actors (all but one of whom were amateur and did it for nothing - including her dad!), planning all the shooting, ... you get the picture. The editing itself took over a month. Most of the gear used was supplied by the college and fellow students helped with the scene setup and the camera work, so it was decent dedicated video gear with a team operating it. She also paid for a specialist drone photo company to come in and shoot some aerial sections. She also had to pay out for various other things like props. Despite keeping everything on a shoestring it still cost over £10k in additional costs over the MA course itself.

The result was a 20min feature that was very well produced technically but it still had "amateur" overtones to it. I'm OK with that since she's learning and I'm sure she'll go on to a career in the industry since it was clear she was passionate and talented. So my point is this - someone on a year-long Masters-level course, with help and guidance from experienced film-makers, using the resources of a specialist college, plus £10k in out-of-pocket expenses, and with endless enthusiasm ... spent 9 months of her time to produce a 20min feature that still fell short of something that we'd all recognise as "professional".

And yet, there is foaming at the mouth about a fake overheat timer on the new Canon R5 because it limits you to 8K video. It seems to me that the issue of making quality video is almost anything but fancy 8k cameras!
 

pake

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
2,298
Location
Finland
Real Name
Teemu
And yet, there is foaming at the mouth about a fake overheat timer on the new Canon R5 because it limits you to 8K video. It seems to me that the issue of making quality video is almost anything but fancy 8k cameras!
Hmm... It seems you don't read internet forums/blogs that much... It's ALL ABOUT THE GEAR!!! (And especially the sensor). :thumbup:
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
332
Location
The Netherlands
Real Name
Roel
If I was a PC manufacturer I would intimidatingly started sponsoring everyone who is advocating for 8k. Obviously there are benefits for high end productions shooting in 8k, but for amateur/semi-pro this can become a very.. very expensive hobby.

Just a quick look and I see that recommended specs for 8k are a CPU with 12 cores (and up), 128gb RAM and software like Premiere Pro needing at least 10GB of VRAM for handling 8K footage (which bring you in Geforce 2080 ti 11GB GPU territory). Ah well, you would also end up with a dream system for gaming (and could start recuperate some of the investment streaming on Twitch) ;)
 

mcgillro

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
657
Location
Hastings, NZ
I do not uderstand the preoccupation with video! I just want a decent stills camera. Is it too much to ask that we can continue to have this. It seems every camera these days is focused on video ... I would always support a system that mainly focused on still ..... old fashioned maybe. But there it is.
 

mcgillro

Mu-43 Top Veteran
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
657
Location
Hastings, NZ
I do not uderstand the preoccupation with video! I just want a decent stills camera. Is it too much to ask that we can continue to have this. It seems every camera these days is focused on video ... I would always support a system that mainly focused on still ..... old fashioned maybe. But there it is.
Does that mean if m4/3rds is going to the tube, as people say, that I will have to revert to Canon. Still have M5.
And what about - and Nikon, Pentax etc
 

Mike Wingate

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
3,052
Location
Altrincham
Real Name
Mike Wingate
Olympus are not selling their camera business. Just a rumour, they have stated many times that they will not do this, nor offer APS_C and are not interested in video. They have 4/10 cameras as the top selling cameras in Japan. So no problems!
 

BDR-529

Mu-43 Veteran
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
317
I do not uderstand the preoccupation with video! I just want a decent stills camera. Is it too much to ask that we can continue to have this. It seems every camera these days is focused on video ... I would always support a system that mainly focused on still ..... old fashioned maybe. But there it is.
Many Olympus owners are somehow missing the fact that video and stills are not mutually exclusive features. On the contrary: the very features which make a great sports camera like accurate and fast C-AF are absolutely mandatory for good video camera as well.

M1,2, M1.3 and M1X all use practically identical sensor to G9/GH5, they have a lot of processing power and huge amount of very fast buffer memory so there's no technical reason why Olympus could not have given them at least as good video specs as Panny without sacrificing any of stills features. Video features are just addtional SW, they don't have any impact on stills IQ. As a matter of fact, Olympus could have made a much better "GH5" because they have a very good PDAF which has always been the achilles heel for panny.

At least to me it looks like that Olympus management made an intentional decision to omit video specs which might have attracted videographers because they were afraid of backlash from their loyal stills-oriented customer base "I don't wan't any of that video nonsense, I'll just need a good stills camera or I go elsewhere". Well, the outcome was that Olympus actively pushed every hybrid MFT camera buyer to Panny camp for years and rest, as they say, is history.
 

Lcrunyon

Mu-43 Hall of Famer
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
2,098
Location
Maryland
Real Name
Loren
There’s definitely room for these cameras to grow in the video arena. The only video I really like in the current Oly cameras (at least the ones I own) is C4K, which produces very nice results but is pretty limited in options. They need better codecs for 4K video, as well as faster frame rate options — all software improvements that I believe could be done with the existing hardware.

I agree that a camera these days really needs both photography and video. I don’t think Olympus intentionally omitted video capabilities. Based on their own admission, they just have been legitimately behind the curve from Panasonic. But, their video capabilities have nevertheless been steadily improving.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
1,218
Location
Rankin Inlet, Nunavut
Olympus ProCapture *is* video. At 18 FPS or higher recording as a stills or video codec is academic. It’s video.

I suspect Olympus didn’t up step video features because it adds cost in the form of programming and QC (compatibility with IBIS, firmware) and because of licensing or other external fees. It adds up and there are diminishing returns. I also suspect there is a Gentleman's Agreement with a Panasonic at play. Why, in the age of vlogging, the EM10 does not have an external mic port is beyond me. Olympus even sells audio recorders!

The reason why video has become dominant over stills is market share. Consumers watch vastly more video than they look at photos. The eyeball and financial markets for stills photos is 0.00x% of the video market. Since almost all images are now shared over the internet, it makes little difference if video or stills. An argument can be made that video fits the fixed screen dimensions and linear viewing habits more than photos. A shoebox of printed photos can be spread over the kitchen or light table and serendipitously viewed. Video is perfect for portable and computer screens and dedicated viewing structure, one after another. In fact, video does better on smaller screens and photos on larger ones, and most screens are small and in pockets now.

I acquired my EM1X in large part because of its terrific video. m43 has advantages in video that make up for its deficiencies in stills, like battery, processing, bandwidth, and heat where larger sensors get into trouble. FF stop, resolution, and DR advantages disappear faster with video than they do stills, as we see with the Canon R5 and R6, the latter still just 20MP in the frame. What keeps m43 viable is video as it levels the playing field and satisfies a necessary niche.
 
Last edited:

PhotoCal

Mu-43 Regular
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
84
I'm glad others have commented that video is much more than the gear.
I started as a hobbyist in still photography, then worked in a career in video, then left that to return to stills (hobbyist).

YouTube has shown that you don't need talent or content to make money from video.
 

Latest posts

Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Mu-43 is a fan site and not associated with Olympus, Panasonic, or other manufacturers mentioned on this site.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Copyright © 2009-2019 Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom