More statements from JIP

[BDR-529]

What we can learn from it? That its hard to see a diffrence or any diffrence at all in the final out put images unless they are verry big or pixel peeping.

We learn why smartphones are taking over the world and killing traditional camera industry. The only way 99,9% of people are "consuming" still images today is on oversaturated 6'' smartphone screens or in best case 15'' laptops. Even print media is on it's way out.

Isolated basket cases like me might even use a PC with a 32'' display but it doesn't change the fact that all images are embedded in webpages or social media apps which means that they are downscaled to fraction of original.

Oh heck, even in this photographic forum images are downscaled to around 1000px. With this amount of oversampling and the fact that even here 99,9% of viewers are using something else than calibrated 32'' 4k monitors, anyone could just as well post 5MP smartphone images and nobody would ever realize that they are not taken with M1X and that fancy new $75000 oly lens. Just have a look at the smartphone images thread.

With a bit of post processing, original differences in dynamic range, colour science or even noise become all but invisible in the final medium (downscaled jpg on random OLED or LCD screen).

There are pretty much three common areas left where smartphones can't match ILC:s as per today no matter how much processing power and AI technology is available:
1) very fast action (sports) images, especially under low light
2) anything that requires very long telephoto lens and
3) anything that requires powerfull external flash (or several)

 

[RS86]

We learn why smartphones are taking over the world and killing traditional camera industry. The only way 99,9% of people are "consuming" still images today is on oversaturated 6'' smartphone screens or in best case 15'' laptops.

Isolated basket cases like me might even use a PC with a 32'' display but it doesn't change the fact that all images are embedded in webpages or social media apps which means that they are downscaled to fraction of original.

Oh heck, even in this photographic forum images are downscaled to around 1000px. With this amount of oversampling and the fact that even here 99,9% of viewers are using something else than calibrated 32'' 4k monitors, anyone could just as well post 5MP smartphone images and nobody would ever realize that they are not taken with M1X and that fancy new $75000 oly lens. Just have a look at the smartphone images thread.

With a bit of post processing, original differences in dynamic range, colour science or even noise become all but invisible in the final medium (downscaled jpg on random OLED or LCD screen).

There are pretty much three common areas left where smartphones can't match ILC:s as per today no matter how much processing power and AI technology is available:
1) very fast action (sports) images, especially under low light
2) anything that requires very long telephoto lens and
3) anything that requires powerfull external flash (or several)

I would guess 99,9 % is a bit overstating if your maximum is 15" screen in that statement. But not that big of a deal.

Anyway, I would add:

4) anything that requires good ergonomics & fast easy controls.
5) anything that is printed bigger than A3-A4 (?) and wanting great quality.

Another thing to note is low-light photography in general. Phones can do a good job, but I have the impression that they will lack in that department in certain cases.

 

[BDR-529]

I would guess 99,9 % is a bit overstating if your maximum is 15" screen in that statement. But not that big of a deal.

Another thing to note is low-light photography in general. Phones can do a good job, but I have the impression that they will lack in that department in certain cases.

In terms of image volume that 99,9% was not an overstatement. Even those few who still take pictures with real cameras and have proper displays to view them, consume insane amount of low quality images every time they use smartphones or open web browser on any device. Every social media app and web page is full of images nowadays and average person must see hundreds if not thousands of them every day. They just spend less than a second for each and don't even realize how huge the volume is.

If you calculate in terms of time people actually spend looking at some individual picture, ratio might be different but very few will power up better devices when they see a very good image on their smartphone screen. I was honestly surprised when I took some m4/3 stills from my youngest kids soccer game and shared the original quality jpegs with other parents over Onedrive (I have free 15GB there for whatever reason). It turned out that nobody had an ILC and they were blown away by how good action shots I had taken with my humble panny. They simply didn't realize that anything better than those fuzzy smarphone shots exists. Only 10-15 years ago several soccerr moms and dads still had ILC:s or bridge cameras on each game. Today I was the only "professional photographer". eh?

Latest phones can do extremely good job in low light as long as subject is relatively close and not moving fast. Which is usually the case with the dessert of BFF sitting on the opposite side of restaurant table.

 

[RS86]

In terms of image volume that 99,9% was not an overstatement. Even those few who still take pictures with real cameras and have proper displays to view them, consume insane amount of low quality images every time they use smartphones or open web browser on any device. Every social media app and web page is full of images nowadays and average person must see hundreds if not thousands of them every day. They just spend less than a second for each and don't even realize how huge the volume is.

Latest phones can do extremely good job in low light as long as subject is relatively close and not moving fast. Which is usually the case with the dessert of BFF sitting on the opposite side of restaurant table.

Okay, let's do this then.

I can't copypaste from this site, but it says in China (where most of the people use mobile devices) 98 % use mobile devices to access internet. That leaves 2 % for laptops & desktops. Below you can see that in 2023 it is estimated that about 1/5 will use a desktop and 4/5 will use a laptop in PC department.

So if we take 1/5 from 2 %, that leaves 0,4 %. You claim 0,1 % usage of desktop PC's worldwide, while it seems even in China (place of smallest PC usage) we have more usage than that. So worldwide it is a much bigger amount, and that is only by 2023. I think we can assume almost all desktop PC's nowadays have bigger than 15" screen.

https://www.broadbandsearch.net/blog/mobile-desktop-internet-usage-statistics

Forecast: global shipment of tablets, laptops and desktop PCs 2010-2024

Tablet computers have become the personal computing device of choice for many consumers, with their meteoric rise coming largely at the expense of the desktop-PC. Consumers clearly prefer portable, with the desktop-PC-held share of the market falling from 42 percent in 2010, to an expected 21 percent share in 2023.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...forecast-for-tablets-laptops-and-desktop-pcs/

 

[pake]

Based on Google Analytics, the ratio of desktop users vs mobile phone users is currently around 50/50 on my photography website. But the mobile phones users are gaining more and more ground each month.

 

[pdk42]

Whatever the actual figures (which we can ague about), the point is that most images are only viewed on relatively small devices. That was one of the driving points behind my realisation that the Nikon Z7 I had wasn't adding much to the practical output I was getting. The same argument applies to prints as well. Unless you are doing heavy cropping, even a big print (A1/3-foot wide) won't reveal a difference between m43 and FF.

 

[RichardC]

3/4 of my retail customers order via phone or tablet browser.

 

[Mike Wingate]

I have received 3 emails from Camera shops saying that they are open To walk in customers. But I cannot leave tier 3 to travel 8 miles to go to solo indoor archery, with a range to myself for 2 hours.

 

[BDR-529]

Based on Google Analytics, the ratio of desktop users vs mobile phone users is currently around 50/50 on my photography website. But the mobile phones users are gaining more and more ground each month.

"How does Google Analytics determine device type?
The device category is obtained from information contained in the browsers 'user agent' string. This is essentially a software that is acting on behalf of a user."

For example I have set user agents to "desktop" on each and every mobile device I use for a simple reason: "mobile" versions of any webpage I have ever visited are hit with Canon Cripple Hammer™ to the point where they became totally useless and my smartphone and tablet are powerfull enought to show the full version.

The name "desktop" is more than a bit missleading because it covers all laptops as well. Youtube is kind enough to add two categories: Smart TV:s and playstations but even they can't tell a difference between a desktop PC and a laptop. 65'' 4k OLED TV would be a perfect medium to view still images at home but even 16MP originals would be seriously downscaled and the premium ILC owners paid for sensor and lens resolution is all but lost.

Anyways, my point was that as per today the only persons who would fire up a proper PC to see someone elses still images in their original resolution on 4k display are themselves photographers so the whole thing becomes sort of circle jerk anyway. And this circle is the one that's shrinking every day.

And the sad fact is that on oversaturated 6'' smartphone OLED screen it's almost impossible to see any difference between images taken with a $10 000 ILC kit or $400 smartphone unless it's a long telephoto or low light sports image. Even if it would be possible, smartphone users just don't care anymore.

 

[stevedo]

I came in here expecting to read comments relating to "more statements from JIP". Looks like I got seriously lost.

 

[Aristophanes]

The requirement that an ILC user also have a PC/Mac to process their images when the potential user base is by far dominated by mobileOSs has been a major factor in the ILC market decline.

 

[RichardC]

The requirement that an ILC user also have a PC/Mac to process their images when the potential user base is by far dominated by mobileOSs has been a major factor in the ILC market decline.

I find that surprising.

Who (apart from iphone photographers) are the enthusiasts who expect to correct colour, crop and exposure on an iphone?

Surely processing an image is part and parcel of the creative process, and that someone buying an ILC would not necessarily be the type who prints directly from their SD card at the shopping mall.

 

[ac12]

I find that surprising.

Who (apart from iphone photographers) are the enthusiasts who expect to correct colour, crop and exposure on an iphone?

Surely processing an image is part and parcel of the creative process, and that someone buying an ILC would not necessarily be the type who prints directly from their SD card at the shopping mall.

The parent that buys a dSLR to shoot their child playing a sport, or similar person.
Some people don't understand why you edit. They take it right out of the camera, like they do a phone camera.

 

[Mike Wingate]

Nearly all my iPhone/iPad photos are SnapSeeded, said the JIS rep.

 

[RichardC]

The parent that buys a dSLR to shoot their child playing a sport, or similar person.
Some people don't understand why you edit. They take it right out of the camera, like they do a phone camera.

I get that.

I figured that people would either take images straight off the card - or - process on a big computer screen to get the best pictures for their investment.

The iphone editing option seems like a poor one to me. Is it even worth the bother?

 

[Aristophanes]

I find that surprising.

Who (apart from iphone photographers) are the enthusiasts who expect to correct colour, crop and exposure on an iphone?

Surely processing an image is part and parcel of the creative process, and that someone buying an ILC would not necessarily be the type who prints directly from their SD card at the shopping mall.

The emphasis on JPEG over RAW is obvious with Olympus and the PEN-F, for example. SOOC is how Japan Inc. tried to fight smartphones. That and a CD-ROM for the “home darkroom” crowd, always envisioned as a much smaller market.

Then along came smartphones and tablets with built-in processing and colour correction, faster (better) cropping, etc. The Olympus response was ART and SCN on the top dial.

 

[RichardC]

....and I'm sitting here dreaming of an even bigger iMac so I can fit more photoshop panels on my screen (or maybe just another screen)

 

[John M Flores]

I find that surprising.

Who (apart from iphone photographers) are the enthusiasts who expect to correct colour, crop and exposure on an iphone?

Surely processing an image is part and parcel of the creative process, and that someone buying an ILC would not necessarily be the type who prints directly from their SD card at the shopping mall.

I do when I am on assignment. I'll take photos with M43 and will select and transfer photos to my phone for quick processing same day posting for social media. Fast connection, transfer, and editing is critical, as is color accuracy, which can be really challenging in certain situations.

Journalists and creators have to build and maintain their own brand these days because having your own platform and audience helps land future work. And part of building that platform is engaging with followers in real-time or near real-time.

When I get home, I will edit RAWs on my 27" color calibrated monitor for print publication as well, but I also want and need an agile and accurate mobile workflow. So when I buy a phone, I evaluate its screen as if I am buying a monitor, max the storage, and consider battery life under heavy processing workloads.

 

[Baenwort]

I don't want more MP for all the reasons above.

However, give me a new sensor with a faster read out speed so that I can use electric shudder with flash. And to reduce notion artifacts!

 

[RS86]

"How does Google Analytics determine device type?
The device category is obtained from information contained in the browsers 'user agent' string. This is essentially a software that is acting on behalf of a user."

For example I have set user agents to "desktop" on each and every mobile device I use for a simple reason: "mobile" versions of any webpage I have ever visited are hit with Canon Cripple Hammer™ to the point where they became totally useless and my smartphone and tablet are powerfull enought to show the full version.

The name "desktop" is more than a bit missleading because it covers all laptops as well. Youtube is kind enough to add two categories: Smart TV:s and playstations but even they can't tell a difference between a desktop PC and a laptop. 65'' 4k OLED TV would be a perfect medium to view still images at home but even 16MP originals would be seriously downscaled and the premium ILC owners paid for sensor and lens resolution is all but lost.

Did you miss my post or confuse who you were arguing with?

I covered that area and found a statistic where it is estimated that ~1/5 of computers in 2023 will be desktops and ~4/5 laptops.

Two times you said that 99,9 % was not an overstatement, and when I digged the statistics, you ignored it totally. Also not sure why you switch goal posts to "image volume"?

Like I said, not a big deal, but you insisted on it.

Also you got your info about google analytics from this page? It's the same quote? Do you have any better sources as those statements are questioned in the same page?

(Edit. Really man, I checked, what a source you got to try to prove your point.. the member "fattalico" had 9 answers, and 3 questions in that forum in 4 years. And didn't answer the questions about his claims you quoted here.)

I found on one other page that google analytics might find out about laptop vs desktop from battery-information, and of course similar could be used for mobile devices?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions...termine-device-category-mobile-tablet-desktop