Monitor calibration differences

speedy

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Can someone help with a bit of an explanation, as to what exactly is going on here. I'm no professional, so I don't worry about using any special aftermarket colour calibration tools or software. I just run through the inbuilt Windows 10 program in the settings menu, & run with that. I can then choose the calibration settings in my raw converter, & use that (Silkypix) Now, this is where the head scratching begins. Windows, & SP are allegedly using the same calibration profile, yet the colours & contrast look washed out when viewed in a web browser. I've tried Microsoft Edge, Chrome, Firefox, & Brave to name a few, they're all pretty similar, yet way different than using the same profile in SP. What gives? Any settings I've missed?

Edit -Windows seems to have hijacked my previous Intel app, where you could choose between using the full dynamic range setting, or the TV profile. That has disappeared, and been replaced with Windows own calibration program.
 
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speedy

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I'm using an Intel Skull Canyon NUC, with its inbuilt Iris Pro 850 graphics/video https://www.anandtech.com/show/10343/the-intel-skull-canyon-nuc6i7kyk-minipc-review
Monitor is an older 24" 1080p Viewsonic VX2439wm. I'm not concerned about absolute calibration accuracy/values, but why there's a difference between what I see while in Silkypix, & on a browser, of the same photo.
Oh, & Merry Xmas to you too :) And anyone/everyone else who may be browsing
 
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Are the web browsers you're using color managed ? And/or whatever websites you're viewing them on/uploading them too, may change and colorspace settings you had, or process the files you upload (compression and re-sizing are common).
 

speedy

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Are the web browsers you're using color managed ? And/or whatever websites you're viewing them on/uploading them too, may change and colorspace settings you had, or process the files you upload (compression and re-sizing are common).
Also, are you uploading in sRGB color space? If not, could that be the reason for the washed-out colors?
I've tried viewing in Edge, Chrome, Brave and Firefox. All seem very similar. It's more the contrast that I'm seeing huge differences in.
I'm uploading jpegs to my Google photos, in full quality, not allowing them to be compressed. Then shared from there. Flickr also shows the same symptoms. And also uploading directly from my computer to here.
 
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BosseBe

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Windows own calibration program.
What calibration program is that?
I have a W10 PC and I can't seem to find a Windows colour calibration program on it. But I haven't looked to hard as I use a Spyder 5 Express to calibrate.
I am thinking that the colour profile you use with Silkypix might not be used by the browsers.
If you set that profile as your default profile in Windows, do the browsers still show a difference?
 

Replytoken

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If you are not using calibration software and a puck to calibrate, do not assign a color profile to your monitor unless your monitor manufacturer specifically instructs you to do so. I do not use SP, but again, I would not assign a color space unless specifically instructed to do so. As mentioned above, are you saving your files after processing in the sRGB color space?

--Ken
 

speedy

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What calibration program is that?
I have a W10 PC and I can't seem to find a Windows colour calibration program on it.
But I haven't looked to hard as I use a Spyder 5 Express to calibrate.
I am thinking that the colour profile you use with Silkypix might not be used by the browsers.
If you set that profile as your default profile in Windows, do the browsers still show a difference?
I'll let you know when I'm near a computer again. I know how to get there visually, not by memory. They keep moving it around, and it makes it hard to remember exactly. You can set the gamma, brightness, contrast, and red, blue and green tint from memory. My sister used to shoot professionally, she used a calibrated MacBook Pro of some description for onsite work, and we were surprised how close I had gotten with the windows program. Not saying it's perfect by a long shot, but plenty good enough for me.
 

felipegeek

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@speedy I don't use the manual calibration wizard in Windows or anything else that attempts to eyeball it along the way but maybe these instructions at the Tenforums will help. https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/80712-calibrate-display-color-windows-10-a.html

I was using an old Spyder 4 until recently then borrowed an X-rite calibrator from my workplace to do the most recent profiles on my two displays. I recommend hardware-backed calibrators in general but I understand that not everyone desires that level of accuracy. You may just have a good eye for the how the color/brightness/contrast should look which allows you make appropriate adjustments in the manual calibration wizard for a good result.
 

speedy

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[B]@speedy I don't use the manual calibration wizard in Windows or anything else that attempts to eyeball it along the way but maybe these instructions at the Tenforums will help[/B]. https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/80712-calibrate-display-color-windows-10-a.html

I was using an old Spyder 4 until recently then borrowed an X-rite calibrator from my workplace to do the most recent profiles on my two displays. I recommend hardware-backed calibrators in general but I understand that not everyone desires that level of accuracy. You may just have a good eye for the how the color/brightness/contrast should look which allows you make appropriate adjustments in the manual calibration wizard for a good result.

Yep, that's the one I use. Like I wrote, I'm not particularly worried about getting it super critical accurate right down to the last % or 2, but what is mystifying to me, is that it saves that calibration, for what I assume is used for apps/programs within the OS. When I open the display settings in Silkypix, I can see that particular profile, along with what I assume is a generic profile supplied by the manufacturer and a couple of others I don't understand, choose the one I created & edit my photos using that profile. As far as I'm aware, all in sRGB. I then upload it my Google Drive/photo's at full res, no compression, open it in a web browser, & the contrast looks way different to what I see if I open the same file in Silkypix. Washed out and a bit bland looking.
 

speedy

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I'll let you know when I'm near a computer again. I know how to get there visually, not by memory. They keep moving it around, and it makes it hard to remember exactly. You can set the gamma, brightness, contrast, and red, blue and green tint from memory. My sister used to shoot professionally, she used a calibrated MacBook Pro of some description for onsite work, and we were surprised how close I had gotten with the windows program. Not saying it's perfect by a long shot, but plenty good enough for me.

Right. This is the more convoluted way I go about it.
  • Hit the Windows/start button in the bottom left corner of your display
  • Choose system
  • Choose display
  • scroll down to the advanced display settings
  • choose display adaptor properties
  • choose the colour management tab
  • hit the colour management button
  • choose the advanced tab
  • hit the calibrate display button, which should fire up the Windows calibration program. Once you've gone through that, you can choose to use your new or old profile. It also fires up the Clear text? program, which you can use to optimize the sharpness of text displayed on your screen.
 

Replytoken

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There are a lot of parts to color management and it can be easy to think that a monitor profile should be used elsewhere. That would not be correct. In short, a monitor profile adjusts, with hardware or software, your monitor to a known state of color and brightness. It is not to be used elsewhere. Your editing software works in a color space and it should be set in the program. Changing this can cause problems like what you are seeing. Finally, when you save a file in a format, you need to assign a color space to it. sRGB is the "lingua franca" of the digital world. Until you have a handle on color management, it is best to keep exported files in sRGB and to not select icc/icm profiles unless you know why are are doing so. Color management is not unlike a rabbit hole where you can easily get lost if you are not paying close attention.

--Ken
 

speedy

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There are a lot of parts to color management and it can be easy to think that a monitor profile should be used elsewhere. That would not be correct. In short, a monitor profile adjusts, with hardware or software, your monitor to a known state of color and brightness. It is not to be used elsewhere. Your editing software works in a color space and it should be set in the program. Changing this can cause problems like what you are seeing. Finally, when you save a file in a format, you need to assign a color space to it. sRGB is the "lingua franca" of the digital world. Until you have a handle on color management, it is best to keep exported files in sRGB and to not select icc/icm profiles unless you know why are are doing so. Color management is not unlike a rabbit hole where you can easily get lost if you are not paying close attention.

--Ken
Let me get this straight. Are you telling me that every single program on my computer, should have its own, specific, calibrated colour profile?
 

b_rubenstein

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Let me get this straight. Are you telling me that every single program on my computer, should have its own, specific, calibrated colour profile?

The color profile is for correcting the image displayed by the monitor. Once you have a profile the corrects the monitor's problems, I would suggest using sRGB color space for all your photo editing applications. This should result in your pictures looking the same regardless of the browser you're using.
 

Replytoken

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Let me get this straight. Are you telling me that every single program on my computer, should have its own, specific, calibrated colour profile?
Welcome to the rabbit hole. I am not saying that every single program needs a profile, but what I am saying is that one profile does not serve all purposes. This is a complex subject and I do not claim to be an expert, but let me provide a bit more context. For the sake of discussion, let's divide this subject into two topics - color space and calibration. Hardware and software work in color spaces. The least common denominator of color spaces today is sRGB. It is a somewhat narrow space, but it is generally what is assumed to be the space on the everyday Jane and Joe's computer. There are wider color spaces, like Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB among others. Good editing software likes to use a wider color space if possible as it provide several benefits in the editing process. One significant one is that it maintains as much color from the raw file (which has no assigned color space). Generally, you want to start with the largest workable color space and stay there as long as possible before needing to move to a space like sRGB. Some programs allow you to change the color space they can work in, but in general, it is best to work in the recommended space, which is usually the largest workable space. LR, for example, uses a variation of ProPhoto RGB called Melissa (named after one of the original program authors). Now at this point, you also need to know that raw photos, which have no assigned color space usually contain an embedded jpeg file that the camera creates for convenience. This the file that you frequently see outside of an editing program when you are browsing. This is important because that jpeg file is created based on what the camera manufacturers want you to see. It is neither correct or incorrect. It is just what they selected. The reason this is important is that folks see this embedded jpeg and then they see the raw image in an editing program and they often do not look alike.

With respect to hardware, monitors have color spaces they are capable of displaying. At a minimum, if you are editing images, you want a monitor that can display 100% of sRGB. Wide gamut monitors can fully display 100% of Adobe RGB and some can display a few other spaces that are becoming more common. I am assuming that you are not using a wide gamut monitor, so I am not going to go into the detail of how that can impact your viewing of images, but know that this is there and needs to be accounted for if you own one.

Now on to calibration. Calibration is basically getting hardware to display colors in a known state. Monitors and printers need to be calibrated so that the color in your file is seen as it should be in the color space you are using and and printed the same. Printers and monitors usually need to be calibrated and then have their own correction files created so they can be corrected at start-up. The corrections for once device do not serve as corrections for another device, and that is why I said that one file does not serve all purposes.

Finally, as you move through color spaces in your workflow, hopefully from larger to smaller, you need to be aware of colors that will be flagged as Out of Gamut. This means that a color that appears fine in Adobe RGB is not going to be able to appear as such in sRGB. There are ways of making that color appear, but that involves a bit of "crunching" to make that happen. But, this is also a reason why images can look good while editing, but not when viewed in a browser, especially if the viewing program is not color managed.

My apologies if in my short handing this explanation if I made any errors. As I said, color management is a vast and complicated subject, and one can easily get twisted around, evenif they do have an idea of what they are trying to do.

Good luck,

--Ken
 

John King

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Welcome to the rabbit hole. I am not saying that every single program needs a profile, but what I am saying is that one profile does not serve all purposes. This is a complex subject and I do not claim to be an expert, but let me provide a bit more context. For the sake of discussion, let's divide this subject into two topics - color space and calibration. Hardware and software work in color spaces. The least common denominator of color spaces today is sRGB. It is a somewhat narrow space, but it is generally what is assumed to be the space on the everyday Jane and Joe's computer. There are wider color spaces, like Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB among others. Good editing software likes to use a wider color space if possible as it provide several benefits in the editing process. One significant one is that it maintains as much color from the raw file (which has no assigned color space). Generally, you want to start with the largest workable color space and stay there as long as possible before needing to move to a space like sRGB. Some programs allow you to change the color space they can work in, but in general, it is best to work in the recommended space, which is usually the largest workable space. LR, for example, uses a variation of ProPhoto RGB called Melissa (named after one of the original program authors). Now at this point, you also need to know that raw photos, which have no assigned color space usually contain an embedded jpeg file that the camera creates for convenience. This the file that you frequently see outside of an editing program when you are browsing. This is important because that jpeg file is created based on what the camera manufacturers want you to see. It is neither correct or incorrect. It is just what they selected. The reason this is important is that folks see this embedded jpeg and then they see the raw image in an editing program and they often do not look alike.

With respect to hardware, monitors have color spaces they are capable of displaying. At a minimum, if you are editing images, you want a monitor that can display 100% of sRGB. Wide gamut monitors can fully display 100% of Adobe RGB and some can display a few other spaces that are becoming more common. I am assuming that you are not using a wide gamut monitor, so I am not going to go into the detail of how that can impact your viewing of images, but know that this is there and needs to be accounted for if you own one.

Now on to calibration. Calibration is basically getting hardware to display colors in a known state. Monitors and printers need to be calibrated so that the color in your file is seen as it should be in the color space you are using and and printed the same. Printers and monitors usually need to be calibrated and then have their own correction files created so they can be corrected at start-up. The corrections for once device do not serve as corrections for another device, and that is why I said that one file does not serve all purposes.

Finally, as you move through color spaces in your workflow, hopefully from larger to smaller, you need to be aware of colors that will be flagged as Out of Gamut. This means that a color that appears fine in Adobe RGB is not going to be able to appear as such in sRGB. There are ways of making that color appear, but that involves a bit of "crunching" to make that happen. But, this is also a reason why images can look good while editing, but not when viewed in a browser, especially if the viewing program is not color managed.

My apologies if in my short handing this explanation if I made any errors. As I said, color management is a vast and complicated subject, and one can easily get twisted around, evenif they do have an idea of what they are trying to do.

Good luck,

--Ken
Just to add an example to Ken's explanation.

My old monitors (Asus PA246Q) display about 98% of the aRGB colour space. They have a 12 bit colour lookup table (LUT) and a 10 bit panel.

My newer Dell UP2516D displays 100% of the aRGB space. It has a 14 bit LUT and a 12 bit panel.

All are calibrated using a Spyder calibrator.

There is a noticeable difference in colour.

I edit RAW files in ProPhotoRGB 16 bit, and print from these.

My printer (Epson R3880) is a 16 bit device. It can print most of a ProPhotoRGB colour space.

Blattner and Fraser spend much of their mighty 960 page book discussing colour spaces, either directly or indirectly. As Ken said, it is a very complex subject.
 

speedy

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Righto, one file saved as Silkypix default jpeg, the other in sRGB. I don't think that's the issue. They still look a little bit different contrast wise, to what I'm seeing within SP though. I think it's the browsers playing silly b#ggers
guard dog.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
guard dog srgb.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 

Replytoken

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Righto, one file saved as Silkypix default jpeg, the other in sRGB. I don't think that's the issue. They still look a little bit different contrast wise, to what I'm seeing within SP though. I think it's the browsers playing silly b#ggers
View attachment 864941 View attachment 864942
What is Silky's default setting when creating jpeg files? Regarding browsers, I am not surprised at all. I would recommend also viewing images with something like FastStone, XN View, Irfanview or Adobe Bridge. These should be color managed, and they will also display EXIF data, including color space.

--Ken
 

speedy

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What is Silky's default setting when creating jpeg files? Regarding browsers, I am not surprised at all. I would recommend also viewing images with something like FastStone, XN View, Irfanview or Adobe Bridge. These should be color managed, and they will also display EXIF data, including color space.

--Ken
I don't know. The output file dropdown menu just presents you with SP default, sRGB, RGB & a couple of others I can't think of off hand. I seem to recall running into this previously, when Google & MS can't seem to help themselves fiddling with things in the background. Browsers are weird things IMO. Oddly enough, Chrome displays my images as quite soft at any magnification, even though they're saved within their own system -that being Google photos. Maybe it's something to do with trying to save bandwidth & using caches or something. Way beyond me. Brave or Firefox show varying degrees of softness depending on magnification, & that's not even going over 100%
 
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