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Leica APO 50/f2 - price?

Discussion in 'Other Systems' started by nickthetasmaniac, May 10, 2012.

  1. nickthetasmaniac

    nickthetasmaniac Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2011
    First up, this is a genuine question, rather than an "OMG I could buy a car for that price" thread...

    Leica has just released their APO Summicron-M 50mm f2 ASPH, and tagged it with a price of $7195USD.

    Leica announces APO-Summicron-M 50mm f/2 ASPH normal prime: Digital Photography Review

    Now, I know Leica stuff is expensive, and I also realise that it's very very good. What I don't understand is that it's about twice the price of the Summilux-M 50mm f1.4 ASPH (the best 50mm lens ever according to many), and remarkably close to the Noctilux-M 50mm f0.95 ASPH. To put that in a Micro Four Thirds context, its also about 8x more expensive than the Voigtlander Nokton 25mm f0.95...

    Now can anyone with a solid understanding of Leica products and optical construction generally explain why?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Hikari

    Hikari Mu-43 All-Pro

    Nov 26, 2010
    Because it is expensive to make and uses expensive materials (Leica does not make plastic lenses for their M) and the market is small. Manufacturing tolerances are also high as well as having to be calibrated to their rangefinder cams. As new products are introduced, they also adjust for changes in pricing for materials, etc. Why do you assume this is not an improvement over the performance of the Summilux? The VC Nokton is not even in the same league--there is more than equivalent focal length and aperture to price.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. nickthetasmaniac

    nickthetasmaniac Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2011
    :smile:
     
  4. LisaO

    LisaO Mu-43 Top Veteran

    798
    Mar 18, 2010
    New York Metro Area
    Lisa
    Leica knows it's audience. They know when they come out with something new and special people will pay any price and they can never seem to make enough.

    I remember when the Noctilux at $5000 was the most expensive Leica lens.
    This new 50 cron is supposedly a great lens but I wonder what real Leica fans think about it. I know a shop that has two of the current crons for $1999.

    I actually have an M9 and a couple lenses but with the recent release of cameras like the NEX-7, X-Pro1 and OM-D I really don't find myself going to the Leica much anymore.
     
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  5. GaryAyala

    GaryAyala Mu-43 Legend

    Jan 2, 2011
    SoCal
    Maybe the Leica's have kids in college ... and financial assistance doesn't cover summer school ...

    G
     
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  6. Armanius

    Armanius Mu-43 All-Pro

    Feb 23, 2010
    Houston
    Muttley
    Leica prices do change quite a lot (always upward) after hitting the market. Like Lisa said, there was a time that the Noctilux was actually less than $10000!

    From what I've been told by someone at the Leica event and who has used the new 50 Cron, the new 50 Cron is a theoretically "perfect" lens. It was not designed to replace the current 50 Cron, which is $2200. Rather, it's a speciality lens much like the Noctilux.

    And yes, after seeing the price tag on the new 50 Cron, I feel like I got a bargain with the 50 Lux!!
     
  7. Bhupinder2002

    Bhupinder2002 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Leica has lost its brains

    Gone are the days when Leica was supreme . There are plenty of lenses in the market at 1/10 to 1/20th of price which offer similar or even better performance . I am suspecting Leica is gonna be bankrupt in next couple of years. They will have to join the mainstream for survival or keep on finding rich fools who like expensive tools for a job which can be done with a USD 150 camera ( Read Olympus EPL1 ) and USD 349 lens ( read Oly 45 mm 1.8 ) .
    There are several other combos which will offer u spetcular performance . Wake up Leica wake up ..joint MFT

    Cheers
    Bhupinder
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. nickthetasmaniac

    nickthetasmaniac Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2011
    Name one lens that's 1/20th or 1/20th the price of an equivalent Leica and outperforms it...


    (Note - Zeiss ain't 1/10th to 1/20th cheaper...)
     
  9. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    This isnt a "normal use" optic meant for the masses..... nor one to replace the non-apo version of their summicron. Its expensive because material and limit availability. Just like anything else, you pay exponentially more for every little tiny improvement in the upper tiers of quality equipment. This is true for any hobby, sport, or activity....

    A while ago, they did something similar with their double aspherical 35mm.... which is still one of the rarest lenses bearing the Leica branding.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Bhupinder2002

    Bhupinder2002 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Agree.Its more expensive for its built and craftsmanship rather than optical performance . Its only for certain people and I would never spend nearly 8000 on a lens .
    Cheers
    Bhupinder
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. nickthetasmaniac

    nickthetasmaniac Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2011
    Really? Apparently Leica think it's optically 'perfect'...
     
  12. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer


    Really? I didn't say that.... The majority of the cost of material is in the materials required to produce the exotic glass. Some lenses have had to stop production simply because they cannot source the proper rare materials at marketable prices. I'm sure a block of brass for the lens body is only a fraction of the total manufacturing cost. When I said that it "wasn't meant for the masses" what I meant was that its a special purpose lens for a specific highly discriminating individual who would notice the 1% difference in the final print.

    The rest of the Leica population would simply opt for the non-APO 50mm f/2 summicron (classical rendering) or the 50mm f/1.4 Aspherical (modern rendering). Noticed how many different lenses of the same focal length they carry? Its not only because of price or max aperture... its because they all render the final image very differently. This is very true with the Double Aspherical Leica 35mm that I eluded to which btw goes for $10-13k USD PLUS... USED.. on the open market.

    Sorry. man... I don't mean to sound rude but you pass final judgement on a lot of things that you have very little experience with. As it is, no one REALLY knows anything about this new APO 50mm f/2 Summicron other than the fact that it is more expensive than the 50mm f/1.4 Summilux.... which a layman looking simply at paper specifications (f/1.4 vs f/2) just couldn't comprehend.

    Its ok to have an opinion but don't pass it off like its fact that you somehow are privileged to.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Bhupinder2002

    Bhupinder2002 Mu-43 Hall of Famer


    Ok lets assume I have zero knowledge about photography and I agree no one has seen this new lens but then again what It will offer for USD8000? What will be the major or USD7000 difference in optical quality between this lens and other 50 mm F2 or 1.4 or 1.8 lenses? Probably nothing spectacular except that anyone will go gaga over images taken with this lens ..Leica 3D pop blah ..sharpness?? come on give me a break ..my Olympus 45mm 1.8 costing USD 399 is almost there sir .
    Cheers
     
  14. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Oh boy.. loaded question!!!!

    You do realize glass used to manufacture lenses is not simply melted down silica... right???? that various optical elements in lenses are not made of the same materials (some rare)???? that some optical companies have spent fortunes developing various optical designs??? You do realize that the word "Planar" in the lens call Zeiss Planar isn't just some model name that Zeiss conjured up... its referring to a particular lens design.

    See.. Nikon and Canon.. abstracts all this out.. because the masses just don't care to understand it.. Their lineups are made to be compared at face value so it can be marketed easily. In the case of Canon... its down to "L" lens versus "non-L" lens and that f/1.8 < f/1.4 < f/1.2 etc.

    Also, re-read my updated post.... I updated it with more relevant info and we crossed paths.





    PS.... Sharpness??? It doesn't exist. Its an optical illusion that is painfully obvious to the trained eye looking at a final print. What does exist? FINE detail... period. And that cannot be "fixed" post process.


    There are a few turbo'd highly modified civics that have quarter mile times that beat some current model Ferraris and other super exotic sports cars. Would you trade a modified civic for a Ferrari? Most won't because we all know a Ferrari isn't judged only against its quarter mile times... no different.
     
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  15. fredlong

    fredlong Just this guy...

    Apr 18, 2011
    Massachusetts USA
    Fred
    Olympus new marketing strategy: When almost there is good enough!

    Just messing around, I mean no offense.

    Fred
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. usayit

    usayit Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Don't sell youself short... you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

    In anything (cars, houses, cameras, tools, rifles, etc...), you can spend fortunes on the final 1% advantage. The BIG question is When Is It Good Enough? Of course the answer to that question is totally personal. For some a non-coated-plastic lens in a Holga is perfect... for others.. a $7k Summicron is good enough.

    PS> The Olympus 45mm f/1.8... absolutely great value and performance.. no questioning that (I have one).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. fredlong

    fredlong Just this guy...

    Apr 18, 2011
    Massachusetts USA
    Fred
    I learned about good enough over the years. Back in the mid-eighties my holy grail was a couple of M4s and 35, 50, 90 Summicrons. And a Hasselblad. The closest I got was a IIIc and a CL with a 50mm Summicron and a handful of screw mount lenses. And a Kowa Six. I loved the uncoated 90mm Elmar and still use the Summicron. But today I get images well into the good enough range for me with my m4/3 gear.

    Money is a big issue for me today. If it weren't I'd probably have an M9 just because. And a Hasselblad.

    Fred
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Bhupinder2002

    Bhupinder2002 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Thanks Fred.
    With that much money , I would buy OMD with Oly 45 mm 1.8 and travel to exotic places for photoshoot.Leica is taking its worshippers for a ride and they are happy so who are we to complain .Lets leave it here . I would always rate Olympus OMD/Panny GX1 with Oly 45mm 1.8 optically equal to M9+ 50 mm Summicron F2 if not better . People have blind faith in brand name so we can't help .
    Cheers
    Bhupinder
     
  19. nickthetasmaniac

    nickthetasmaniac Mu-43 All-Pro

    Jan 11, 2011
    Optically equal or 'good enough'? Do you have any experience with an M9/Summicron to be making a call like that?

    Because from every sample I've ever seen MFT + the Zuiko 45/f1.8 doesn't even come close.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Bhupinder2002

    Bhupinder2002 Mu-43 Hall of Famer

    Its not material Leica which it uses in its lenses. It grinds ur hard earned money to manufacture those lenses which offer u nothing but similar performance which u can get from a USD500-USD 1000 lens easily except Leica badge . There is a huge difference between performance of a Ferrai and civic but almost none or minimal between Leica branded lens and other non Leica branded ones and definitely not worth USD 7000.

    Cheers